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Off-Season Trades 2020

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1 hour ago, remkin said:

Scott Powers of the Athletic lists James Reimer for us as trade bait and says "might only cost a mid round pick". 

 

OK, but why Reimer? The gaff? I guess his age being 32 and 4 years older than Mrazek. Also, Rod seems to keep tipping to Mrazek as the go to guy, but statistically, and recently Reimer has been better. Seems like he'd fit the back up role better.

 

Harder to re-sign? Age? I'm thinking maybe age. 

 

If we find a goalie upgrade, which of the two current goalies would you move?

My guess at 3 reasons:

he has the higher cap hit

We don’t want to look bad trading guys that we sign

His stock wont be any higher with us than it is now.  Bought low, sell high.  I don’t see him staying here unless he accepts the backup role.

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2 hours ago, remkin said:

Scott Powers of the Athletic lists James Reimer for us as trade bait and says "might only cost a mid round pick". 

 

OK, but why Reimer? The gaff? I guess his age being 32 and 4 years older than Mrazek. Also, Rod seems to keep tipping to Mrazek as the go to guy, but statistically, and recently Reimer has been better. Seems like he'd fit the back up role better.

 

Harder to re-sign? Age? I'm thinking maybe age. 

 

If we find a goalie upgrade, which of the two current goalies would you move?


He’s owed less than $1M (signing bonus already paid) in real cash. That should be quite attractive for a team with $3M in cap space, needing a quality backup. I don’t think they find a taker for Mrazek without taking cap back.

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On 9/3/2020 at 1:45 PM, remkin said:

Read somewhere a speculation that it would cost us Pesce and Trochek to get Laine. On paper that's probably fair, but in reality? Just say no. 

Toronto fans at it again, or is this a repeat? One is proposing a trade Anderson and Nylander for our 1st, Hamilton and either Jake Bean or Bokk? How condescending but typical? 

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1 hour ago, KJUNKANE said:

Toronto fans at it again, or is this a repeat? One is proposing a trade Anderson and Nylander for our 1st, Hamilton and either Jake Bean or Bokk? How condescending but typical? 

 

 

I wouldn't take Anderson/Nylander for our 1st or Hamilton, much less both.  And even mucher less with sweetener on top of that.

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1 hour ago, realmdrakkar said:

 

 

I wouldn't take Anderson/Nylander for our 1st or Hamilton, much less both.  And even mucher less with sweetener on top of that.

I agree

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21 hours ago, realmdrakkar said:

 

 

I wouldn't take Anderson/Nylander for our 1st or Hamilton, much less both.  And even mucher less with sweetener on top of that.


Hmmm, I’d easily deal 13OA for Nylander. Also, I’d easily deal Hamilton for Nylander. Hamilton is not going to be an easy sign. If Dubas is desperate enough to deal a 60pt forward signed to a reasonable contract  for either of those assets, especially Hamilton with just 1 year left, you take it immediately. You hope the 13OA turns into a Nylander. 

 

I think 1 year of  Andersen + Nylander for the year of Hamilton + 13OA is an overpay for CAR, but not egregious. Andersen is better than Mrazek and Reimer, for sure. And, Nylander is on a sweet deal for what he’d bring up front. The keys would be re-signing Andersen to a reasonable number and who they think could best replace Hamilton. 
 

I don’t do that trade though. I prefer they re-sign Hamilton, but I think it’s going to be a contentious negotiation and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he ends up getting shipped out around the draft for a haul. In a deal for Andersen only, they need to dump one of Mrazek/Reimer for cap reasons so i think that would look like Mrazek + 2nd for Andersen or something like that. 
 

IF, and it’s a huge iF TOR is gunning for Hamilton, I don’t think they’d deal Nylander anyway. I think it’d look something like this:

Andersen + 15OA + Liljgren/Johnsson for Hamilton + McGinn/Foegele/mid round pick, with the Canes knowing they could

move either Reimer or Mrazek for a pick to another team.

Edited by spockrock

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What makes you think Dougie is going to play hard ball? He had a good season going and got injured, that doesn't really raise your price a ton. Also as has been mentioned he has been shipped out of 2 other places because he couldnt fit in, he gets here and slips in like a glove. I feel he wants to be here and due to injury doesnt really have room to ask for the stars

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48 minutes ago, Derailed75 said:

What makes you think Dougie is going to play hard ball? He had a good season going and got injured, that doesn't really raise your price a ton. Also as has been mentioned he has been shipped out of 2 other places because he couldnt fit in, he gets here and slips in like a glove. I feel he wants to be here and due to injury doesnt really have room to ask for the stars


Hamilton will be looking at Pietrangelo as a comparable. Pietrangelo will likely make $8M or more on his next deal. Do you honestly believe that Dundon will willingly spend that much to extend Hamilton? Has he shown any willingness so far to pay market value in re-signing players? 
 

It’s not likely Hamilton and his agent will be the ones playing hardball. (Although the Bruins traded him to CGY as he was coming off his ELC partly because they were worried about an offer sheet and partly because they were worried they couldn’t afford him. He was a tough sign back then too) The  current Canes front office has quite the history of such. They have shipped out Hanifin, Lindholm and Faulk because they didn’t agree to the “final offer”. Aho got offer-sheeted.  I imagine they have a cap number in mind for Hamilton. I highly doubt that number is $8M or higher. It could get ugly.

 

I think in the end they keep Hamilton, but I don’t expect friendly negotiations. And I wouldn’t be too surprised if he ends up getting traded in a few weeks if he hasn’t agreed to an extension by the time the ufa period starts.

 

Also healthy Hamilton this past season was a Norris candidate. Injury or not, that fact will almost certainly raise his ask. 

Edited by spockrock

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50 minutes ago, spockrock said:


Hamilton will be looking at Pietrangelo as a comparable. Pietrangelo will likely make $8M or more on his next deal. Do you honestly believe that Dundon will willingly spend that much to extend Hamilton? Has he shown any willingness so far to pay market value in re-signing players? 
 

It’s not likely Hamilton and his agent will be the ones playing hardball. (Although the Bruins traded him to CGY as he was coming off his ELC partly because they were worried about an offer sheet and partly because they were worried they couldn’t afford him. He was a tough sign back then too) The  current Canes front office has quite the history of such. They have shipped out Hanifin, Lindholm and Faulk because they didn’t agree to the “final offer”. Aho got offer-sheeted.  I imagine they have a cap number in mind for Hamilton. I highly doubt that number is $8M or higher. It could get ugly.

 

I think in the end they keep Hamilton, but I don’t expect friendly negotiations. And I wouldn’t be too surprised if he ends up getting traded in a few weeks if he hasn’t agreed to an extension by the time the ufa period starts.

 

Also healthy Hamilton this past season was a Norris candidate. Injury or not, that fact will almost certainly raise his ask. 

His ask would have been much higher with a full season. I dont see him asking for huge contract for that and again he was an outcast in Boston and was never accepted in Calgary. When named first star during a game the crowds reaction almost made him break down. I think he thinks he's found a home and while he wants to make money I don't think he will squeeze the Canes for money

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2 hours ago, spockrock said:


Hamilton will be looking at Pietrangelo as a comparable. Pietrangelo will likely make $8M or more on his next deal. Do you honestly believe that Dundon will willingly spend that much to extend Hamilton? Has he shown any willingness so far to pay market value in re-signing players? 
 

It’s not likely Hamilton and his agent will be the ones playing hardball. (Although the Bruins traded him to CGY as he was coming off his ELC partly because they were worried about an offer sheet and partly because they were worried they couldn’t afford him. He was a tough sign back then too) The  current Canes front office has quite the history of such. They have shipped out Hanifin, Lindholm and Faulk because they didn’t agree to the “final offer”. Aho got offer-sheeted.  I imagine they have a cap number in mind for Hamilton. I highly doubt that number is $8M or higher. It could get ugly.

 

I think in the end they keep Hamilton, but I don’t expect friendly negotiations. And I wouldn’t be too surprised if he ends up getting traded in a few weeks if he hasn’t agreed to an extension by the time the ufa period starts.

 

Also healthy Hamilton this past season was a Norris candidate. Injury or not, that fact will almost certainly raise his ask. 

 

All 3 of those had under-performed compared to expectations.  Hamilton is the opposite; as previously mentioned, before he went down he was having a Norris level season. Imo, the Canes need to sign Hamilton. And after being a very square peg in two very round hole teams, I've got to believe that Hamilton not only very much wants to stay with the Canes, he also knows that the Canes are willing to shipping out a player If they can't reach an agreement. If the two sides don't reach an agreement it will be a failure on both their parts and I don't expect that to happen. (of course, I've been wrong before, lol) 

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2 hours ago, spockrock said:


Hamilton will be looking at Pietrangelo as a comparable. Pietrangelo will likely make $8M or more on his next deal. Do you honestly believe that Dundon will willingly spend that much to extend Hamilton? Has he shown any willingness so far to pay market value in re-signing players? 
 

It’s not likely Hamilton and his agent will be the ones playing hardball. (Although the Bruins traded him to CGY as he was coming off his ELC partly because they were worried about an offer sheet and partly because they were worried they couldn’t afford him. He was a tough sign back then too) The  current Canes front office has quite the history of such. They have shipped out Hanifin, Lindholm and Faulk because they didn’t agree to the “final offer”. Aho got offer-sheeted.  I imagine they have a cap number in mind for Hamilton. I highly doubt that number is $8M or higher. It could get ugly.

 

I think in the end they keep Hamilton, but I don’t expect friendly negotiations. And I wouldn’t be too surprised if he ends up getting traded in a few weeks if he hasn’t agreed to an extension by the time the ufa period starts.

 

Also healthy Hamilton this past season was a Norris candidate. Injury or not, that fact will almost certainly raise his ask. 

spockrock, my feelings are very much like Derailed here. Of course, I get what you are saying but probably like many, my sentimentality towards my favorite players plays a big role in my judgement concerning their mutual attachment to this area/market/us fans. In the mix too, I realize, is the X factor that a player's agent brings related to monetary consideration, and further how deeply that player possibly concedes his own preferences to that agent, both could vastly tilt the final decision. In it all, the reputation that Dougie brought from 2 clubs appeared to suggest him as a misfit, loner who had problems meshing with teammates? The persona we've viewed since he appeared here is vastly different than that, warming to, socializing with and taking Svech under his wing it would appear. Maybe he is quirky behind the scenes, and we might not know it, but it just feels like this player has blossomed in Carolina. Again I recognize that mine is a biased opinion, but I can't see this apparently ultra sensitive individual judging from some publicized facts I've read, ready to jump back in unpredictable turmoil of an unknown team composition for the sake of money, risking if you will, his happiness?

 

Then again, it all may be his public face, and he might be saying to himself, "It's my chance at lifelong security and I've got to take it" or some such. Or his ego could be such that he wants to be paid similar to Pietrangelo, who knows? Or our GM and committee might try to undervalue him and blow it.

 

For my part, I just want to believe that he's happy here and found a home, as he might be our Norris player/winner.

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12 hours ago, spockrock said:


Hamilton will be looking at Pietrangelo as a comparable. Pietrangelo will likely make $8M or more on his next deal. Do you honestly believe that Dundon will willingly spend that much to extend Hamilton? Has he shown any willingness so far to pay market value in re-signing players? 
 

It’s not likely Hamilton and his agent will be the ones playing hardball. (Although the Bruins traded him to CGY as he was coming off his ELC partly because they were worried about an offer sheet and partly because they were worried they couldn’t afford him. He was a tough sign back then too) The  current Canes front office has quite the history of such. They have shipped out Hanifin, Lindholm and Faulk because they didn’t agree to the “final offer”. Aho got offer-sheeted.  I imagine they have a cap number in mind for Hamilton. I highly doubt that number is $8M or higher. It could get ugly.

 

I think in the end they keep Hamilton, but I don’t expect friendly negotiations. And I wouldn’t be too surprised if he ends up getting traded in a few weeks if he hasn’t agreed to an extension by the time the ufa period starts.

 

Also healthy Hamilton this past season was a Norris candidate. Injury or not, that fact will almost certainly raise his ask. 

Good analysis.  I do think Hamilton has been a surprisingly better fit for the Canes than either Hanifin or Lindholm.  I do think both parties would like to continue their relationship.  That said, Hamilton is a professional athlete at the height of his performance curve.  After next season he will be at the moment the CBA allows him to sell his services to the highest bidder.  Make no mistake, professional athletes seek security in the longest term and highest per year return on their services, because there is not guarantee that they a) won't suffer a career debilitating injury or b) won't suffer a downturn in performance.

 

I can't recall a player jelling with his Canes teammates after being moved twice like Hamilton has.  But, as I have said previously, Svechnikov has to be their #1 priority financially, and getting to a number that works for both the Canes and Hamilton is a function, in part, of outside variables such as moving an undesired contract or two.

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It seems likely in retrospect that there were other issues with Lindholm and Hannifin (and definitely Faulk) besides money, as bipolar, Lake and Kjun point out. And, ironically in that trade that brought us Dougy, as the grit play ended up petering out (Ferland) and Fox ended up walking, it is Dougy that remains as the only currently valid piece of that trade on our side of that ledger. Letting him walk, leaves that trade as a huge plus.....for Calgary and the Rangers. Some say the a team wins the trade if they get the best player. 

 

Lindholm had his issues with the Canes (he was rushed and he was not fully on board playing here at 18), and the Canes had issue with him (he did not show up in great shape on occasion, and while he showed flashes of what he was capable of doing, he was very inconstant, especially vs. his potential, and especially his last year here. (He showed his potential the previous year, and again in Calgary, but not that last year here). There may well have been behind the scenes demands that played in, but sometimes that's also because the player wants to move. This team had been under the thumb of Peters and did not have that vibe of Brindy going yet. Lindholm does not mock our storm surge in our building if there were no issues going on. 

 

Hannifin long gave us the impression that he was a bit of an elitist. He signed after being assured he'd play in the NHL at 18 as a D man. IMO he'd have been better off going to the AHL or staying in college at least one more year. Since he didn't he had to learn the game, mistakes and all, in front of the fans and coaches. 

 

Faulk? Well there are probably 100's of pages of discussion on him on these baords on why to move him. Bottom line he gave back every goal he scored, with interest. High interest. 

 

I think both of the Calgary guys ended up being good players but it was a bad fit at the time. 

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But mainly, as Lake states, these guys are not Hamilton. If one goes back and looks at the list of Stanley Cup winners, there are some common factors. One common ingredient that cup winners tend to have an anchor, Norris level #1 D man, and usually a very good top 3. The Blackhawks showed that you can get by with 3 good D men. Partly because you just play them nearly the entire game. But to do that you need that one uber-stud who can score, but also effortlessly get back on D and move the puck, that guy keys the other D men and that guy is a very very hard guy to find in the NHL. Often in your #1 D man you get one, maybe two features and give back the others. Our years with Faulk as our guy are prime examples. 

 

It is true that we now have a very solid D core and many consider Slavin at least an All Star if not just on the edge of Norris level. But Slavin will never have Dougy's offense. Plus Slavin and Dougy are not mutually exclusive. They are a very very good top pair, another thing we've lacked over many years.

 

Just last night and throughout the playoffs, pundits mention how important it is to get scoring from the blue line to win a cup. 

 

I am flummoxed by the ease with which some just want to follow the cheapo and just discard Dougy because he might want to get paid. It also amazes me that people think TD is practicing el cheapo when he's spending to the cap. When he easily matched the Aho offer. Of course there's a ridiculous number that Dougy's agent could throw out there. But short of that? He's worth it. So pay him and keep the key piece that is so hard to find. 

 

Another thing is that we tend to get mixed up TD's approach to off ice positions vs on ice. This does seem to be his philosophy. If you do not lace them up, you are part of the business side, and that's where costs are watched like a hawk.

 

BTW, I'm not saying that there should not be a negotiation. I'm not saying that you walk in and hand Dougy's agent a blank check and a pen. But when the dust clears, you sign that guy. There are other places to save money. Move Skjei and Gardiner. Bring up Bean and Fleury. Trade Nino for a bag of pucks. Move Dzingle. etc. But pay Dougie. 

 

I think TD will. He once pointed out that the NHL is keyed by star players. You have to have them. You keep your best players if they want to stay. Svech, Aho, TT, Necas, Slavin, Dougy. You do not trade that core or let them walk. They will make you good to great for years. And Dougy is right there with all of them. I go back really just as far as this team in Carolina. In that time we've never had a franchise goalie (love Cam) or a Norris-level #1 D man (Slavin is close). We have one of them now. 

 

Letting Dougy walk, unless his demands are nuts, would be the worst move the committee would have made to that point. Remember also, that while it's money, it's just money. We don't have to trade a guy. If we keep Dougy, make a couple of tweaks at forward, and upgrade goalie, we are there. We're that close. 

 

You let Dougy walk how do you replace what he brings? Few Norris level guys who also play actual defense ever see UFA. So we'd have to trade for him. But to get that piece you'd have to trade....Aho? I mean if you have a guy like that, he's worth a top line center. And if that rarest of UFA's is available? You get to fight 31 teams for them and end up paying just as much as Dougy, probably more, and he's probably not as good.

 

That trade that sent two young studs to Calgary and watched Ferland fizzle and Fox trot off to NY, is still a win for us, because it brought us the rarest of things: a Norris level D man who can also defend. If we re-sign Dougy, that trade is still a win for us IMO. 

 

Negotiate tough but fair. Sign him. That is all.

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1 hour ago, dinz said:

Would be a big mistake to get rid of Hammy.

Defense men who  are as big  and Score like Hamilton are rare .   There are a few examples in the  nhl  but for the most   it's what every team wants on their blue line .  Why the flames even made that deal maybe had to do with  them  filling out spaces   and pieces   on their end  , mean while ditching  Fox and Ferland  who was not coming back with the flames .    Them  losing Hamilton  hurt them a  lot .  

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13 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

 

All 3 of those had under-performed compared to expectations.  Hamilton is the opposite; as previously mentioned, before he went down he was having a Norris level season. Imo, the Canes need to sign Hamilton. And after being a very square peg in two very round hole teams, I've got to believe that Hamilton not only very much wants to stay with the Canes, he also knows that the Canes are willing to shipping out a player If they can't reach an agreement. If the two sides don't reach an agreement it will be a failure on both their parts and I don't expect that to happen. (of course, I've been wrong before, lol) 


Did Faulk really under-perform in 18-19? 
 

I’d argue it was his best and most complete season. However, he wanted to get paid, the Canes had a number in mind, that number was not agreeable to Faulk. Gardiner was then signed, a week or so later, bye bye Faulk.

 

Now, with hindsight, certainly not paying Faulk $6.5M was the right move, and while I don’t think Gardiner has been as bad as some folks make him out to be, he’s an expensive 3rd pair guy here.

 

There will be a plethora of RD free agents on the market this year-Barrie, Vatanen, Schultz, Ceci, DeMelo, Tanev, Hamonic, Braun, etc. Also there are a lot of guys rumored to be available via trade-Dumba, Ristolainen, Mountour, etc. There are potential replacements for Hamilton. And, no, I don’t think any of the above ufa guys or potential trade candidates hold a candle to Hamilton, but...

 

Using the front office’s past actions as a guide and knowing they now face the financial uncertainty of the Covid fallout, I worry a bit about them being their same old selves when negotiating a Hamilton extension. Unfortunately, this year, they may see the number of guys available as potential replacements as an opportunity to squeeze Hamilton.

 

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28 minutes ago, spockrock said:


Did Faulk really under-perform in 18-19? 
 

I’d argue it was his best and most complete season. However, he wanted to get paid, the Canes had a number in mind, that number was not agreeable to Faulk. Gardiner was then signed, a week or so later, bye bye Faulk.

 

Now, with hindsight, certainly not paying Faulk $6.5M was the right move, and while I don’t think Gardiner has been as bad as some folks make him out to be, he’s an expensive 3rd pair guy here.

 

There will be a plethora of RD free agents on the market this year-Barrie, Vatanen, Schultz, Ceci, DeMelo, Tanev, Hamonic, Braun, etc. Also there are a lot of guys rumored to be available via trade-Dumba, Ristolainen, Mountour, etc. There are potential replacements for Hamilton. And, no, I don’t think any of the above ufa guys or potential trade candidates hold a candle to Hamilton, but...

 

Using the front office’s past actions as a guide and knowing they now face the financial uncertainty of the Covid fallout, I worry a bit about them being their same old selves when negotiating a Hamilton extension. Unfortunately, this year, they may see the number of guys available as potential replacements as an opportunity to squeeze Hamilton.

 

I've always been critical of Faulk (for a number of reasons I won't rehash), but I'm in complete agreement with you in that I thought his last season with us was by far his best. In spite of a good season, I still say "underperformed" because he was supposed to be a 1st pair level talent and because he was looking to be paid at that level. Based on that '18-19 season GM Lake would have re-signed him, but not for too much more than $4m per; that's just how I valued him.

 

I personally put Hamilton in the Aho / Svech category rather than the Hannifin / Lindholm / Faulk category. I don't think you squeeze guys in that first group to the point you jeopardize the chance of re-signing them. If I'm right about Dougie wanting to stay with Carolina I put the onus on the Canes to reach an agreement that works for both parties. As rem said, that doesn't mean handing him a blank check; if that's his expectation then you do trade him and go with plan B. But plan B is so inferior to plan A that it would be a shame if it came to that. Kind of a "War Of The Roses" outcome where there is no winner, just two losers. That's my take; it will be interesting to see what the Committee does.       

Edited by LakeLivin

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7 hours ago, remkin said:

It seems likely in retrospect that there were other issues with Lindholm and Hannifin (and definitely Faulk) besides money, as bipolar, Lake and Kjun point out.

Try beboplar.  I might have t report you to an administrator if you call me bipolar again.......

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5 hours ago, Canesfanforever said:

Defense men who  are as big  and Score like Hamilton are rare .   There are a few examples in the  nhl  but for the most   it's what every team wants on their blue line .  Why the flames even made that deal maybe had to do with  them  filling out spaces   and pieces   on their end  , mean while ditching  Fox and Ferland  who was not coming back with the flames .    Them  losing Hamilton  hurt them a  lot .  

The Whalers once drafted one of them but did not retain his rights for very long:  Chris Pronger.  I am pretty sure they got the worst of it when they dealt him away.

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1 hour ago, beboplar said:

The Whalers once drafted one of them but did not retain his rights for very long:  Chris Pronger.  I am pretty sure they got the worst of it when they dealt him away.

Yup  . Chris was a good defense man .    Canes also  once had one of the best but way past their prime  in Paul Coffey :D

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16 hours ago, beboplar said:

Try beboplar.  I might have t report you to an administrator if you call me bipolar again.......

Dang autocorrect. But TBH I think I typed in bepolar. I might be dyslexic and not know it. 

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So listening to XM and their guy from LA, he said that a big need for them is a LHD. Well, I have the most amazing coincidence to report...we are thick with them. 

 

He mentioned that they could do a high end prospect swap to get that guy. This makes me think of Bean for _______ forward. 

 

Pronman has their best prospect as Samuel Fagemo, a 20 yo LW who lit up juniors last year. He's rated High End NHL player which is one notch ahead of Bean, but maybe we sweeten the deal with a second rounder or something. I'm no expansion expert but he might also be shield from that draft. He was a second rounder. No idea if they'd trade him. A guy Pronman has at the same level as Bean in terms of projection (high end/very good), is Arthur Kaliyev. He's 19 and described as an elite scorer and passer, but he's slow and not physical. He says, Kaliyev will need help getting the puck into the zone due to the lack of speed but once there he will make a lot of NHL caliber plays. The Kings took him 33rd overall at the very top of last year's second round.

 

I don't know if a rebuilding team would trade one of those guys, but their rebuild needs a LHD too, and Bean was a mid first rounder and the reigning AHL D man of the year.

 

 

If not, Gardiner for something or maybe Skjei, but not sure what roster forward they have that we'd want for Skjei. 

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OK trading down. Very roughly using the Tulsky table, with a slight premium put in for GMs not doing it much suggesting the price has gone up at least a little.

 

Trading down from #13 to X should net Y

 

x: 16: y: #50 overall second rounder

x: 19: y: #36 overall second rounder

x: 20: y: #33 overall second rounder

 

Going to #19 for the #36 overall would be tempting because the top 10 of the second round will have some nice, high upside gamble guys, and #19 should still get us a decent forward. But the actual teams become an issue as Calgary doesn't have a temping second rounder.

 

The closest thing I could find to a doable deal one for two, would be dropping to #17 by trading with Chicago. We'd drop to #17 and pick up their #44 overall. It would be a slight overpay by them per Tulsky, but it's in the neighborhood and tempting for us.

 

We'd then have 3 second rounders. #41, #44, and #53. Maybe package one of them with one of our extra third rounders and try to move up from 41.

 

Not likely though unless Chicago has a deep love for one of say Mercer or Quinn and they're there at #13. Because Chicago would have no second rounder.

 

Also, we'd have to be comfortable with whomever is left at #17. But if we are and if our scouts have a lot of interest in guys in the low 40's, we'd get 3 players instead of 2 before getting to pick again in the back end of the second. And I'd predict we'd get a pretty decent forward at 17.

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