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Should the Canes Pay John What he is owed ?

Should the Canes pay the man ?  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the Canes pay John Forslund what he Deserves ?



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On 7/19/2020 at 3:52 PM, LakeLivin said:

 

Looking at our roster, in 5 years I expect the Canes will be a perennial contender and the Carolina market will be booming. It's shown that it will support a winner in the past and the area has grown considerably in the meantime. I don't know about loyalty, but in addition to the risk of moving a successful franchise, I'm pretty sure the NHL owners have to approve any moves. I can't see them approving a move out of a successful southern market, and I'd be surprised if they were prone to do Dundon any favors, probably quite the opposite given how he's shaking up the Old Boys network.  

I just saw attendance figures for the past season, and after Carolina’s strong attendance resurgence, we were ... 22nd. The market most often linked to Dundon, at least what I’ve seen, is Houston. Population dwarfs Raleigh. Potential for corporate sponsorships dwarfs Raleigh. It’s also a southern market. I have no idea if it has enough northern transplants to be a ready made hockey market. I’m just saying if Houston or another market has the potential to significantly increase revenue over Raleigh, wouldn’t moving the team just be another good business decision? As in, Chuck’s in the Hall of Fame, but not many listen to radio anymore, so letting him go is just a good business decision. After 29 years of outstanding broadcasting, John wants to be paid whether the team plays or not, so letting him go is just a good business decision. Why is relocation any different? As far as the NHL stepping in, if a larger market means more eyeballs on NHL broadcasts, don’t count on the league blocking anything. Dundon owns the team. If he wants to relocate it, relocation will probably happen. I give him an A+ for investing in players after a lifetime of cut-rate PK operations. But he has not shown a scintilla of interest in perpetuating anything else that came with the team, and I don’t see why playing in Raleigh is any different.

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I’m wondering why the Canes (or any other NHL team for that matter) has to pay the salaries of the broadcasters? Shouldn’t Fox Sports (which presumably pays the team for the local broadcast rights) pay those salaries? I can understand the teams wanting a say in who represents them on the broadcast side but shouldn’t Fox pay those salaries?

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19 hours ago, beboplar said:

Where's Chuck Kaiton these days?

 

With my noise cancelling headphones, I sometimes listen to local radio when mowing the grass on the weekends.  I usually listen to weekend sports or sports talk but there’s not much of that on of interest these days, so I wandered on the AM dial the other weekend and there was a local financial investment show with three or four people talking about stocks and portfolios and whatnot and lo and behold guess who was one of the panelists?  Chuck Kaiton!!! I listened for about 20 minutes and it was sad.  Chuck was clearly out of his element, trying to add an anecdote or touch of humor here and there, but it came off as cringe-worthy.  

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55 minutes ago, bluedevilcane said:

I just saw attendance figures for the past season, and after Carolina’s strong attendance resurgence, we were ... 22nd. The market most often linked to Dundon, at least what I’ve seen, is Houston. Population dwarfs Raleigh. Potential for corporate sponsorships dwarfs Raleigh. It’s also a southern market. I have no idea if it has enough northern transplants to be a ready made hockey market. I’m just saying if Houston or another market has the potential to significantly increase revenue over Raleigh, wouldn’t moving the team just be another good business decision? As in, Chuck’s in the Hall of Fame, but not many listen to radio anymore, so letting him go is just a good business decision. After 29 years of outstanding broadcasting, John wants to be paid whether the team plays or not, so letting him go is just a good business decision. Why is relocation any different? As far as the NHL stepping in, if a larger market means more eyeballs on NHL broadcasts, don’t count on the league blocking anything. Dundon owns the team. If he wants to relocate it, relocation will probably happen. I give him an A+ for investing in players after a lifetime of cut-rate PK operations. But he has not shown a scintilla of interest in perpetuating anything else that came with the team, and I don’t see why playing in Raleigh is any different.

 

Could be. But relocating a team is a bit more complex than letting a couple broadcasters go. And can you think of an example of a financially and competitively successful team being moved if there weren't serious issues with the home venue? Taking a team out of a successful market (projecting 5 years out) into an unproven one can carry quite a bit of risk. Look at how hockey did in Atlanta (twice). I know there were a lot of different factors involved, but still.

 

Bottom line; I'm not particularly worried at this point, but I recognize that opinions vary. Only time will tell for sure.  

Edited by LakeLivin
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1 hour ago, Red_Storm said:

 

With my noise cancelling headphones, I sometimes listen to local radio when mowing the grass on the weekends.  I usually listen to weekend sports or sports talk but there’s not much of that on of interest these days, so I wandered on the AM dial the other weekend and there was a local financial investment show with three or four people talking about stocks and portfolios and whatnot and lo and behold guess who was one of the panelists?  Chuck Kaiton!!! I listened for about 20 minutes and it was sad.  Chuck was clearly out of his element, trying to add an anecdote or touch of humor here and there, but it came off as cringe-worthy.  

I had the EXACT same experience last a while ago.  Wandered the dial and heard him. 

 

Sorry, but it was terrible.  Cringe worthy is a perfect description.

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21 hours ago, beboplar said:

Where's Chuck Kaiton these days?

 

 

He retired a long time ago. Think he lives up in the mountains in NC somewhere.

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On the finance show, I half expected to hear something like this....

 

 

Being 100 percent in stock is like a two line pass.  It may get you a goal, but you're more likely to have the pass be intercepted, then find yourself staring down a loss with depleted defense.

Be smart and don't gamble like that.  Be boring and buy an annuity from our fine host.

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So, not surprising, but Tampa is indeed kicking the tires of John Forslund:

 

https://theathletic.com/1932578/2020/07/17/how-could-the-lightning-search-for-rick-peckhams-play-by-play-replacement/?source=emp_shared_article (Pay site).

 

“Those people are the faces of your franchise,” Helper said. (ex lighting VP).

 

There are two typical ways to approach these hires, which are joint ones made by the team and the local TV network, in this case Fox Sports Sun. You go for the splashy signing, which in this case is someone like Forslund, who appears on his way out from Carolina. Or do you go for the young up-and-comer,

 

It says they are interested in Forslund. They want someone who has chemistry with Engblom, their color guy. These suggest they'll go Forslund, since the guy has chemistry with just about everyone. But they are looking at others.

 

The thing that might go against Forlsund is this line:  "The new hire could have a national presence, but the club doesn’t want them to miss a number of Lightning games for stints with NBC or another network." But then what is a "national presence"? I think that in the past John mostly did the national games on his own time. I don't remember tons of Shaya in the past. Heck him increasing missing Canes games might have been one thing that got in TD's craw a bit. Maybe he'd have to revert back to that if he went to Tampa. 

 

Obviously I'm still thinking that we should keep "the face of our franchise" since he's the best.

 

I will throw this out there as a bit of a bone to the other side of the argument: As with NHL GM jobs, there are only 31 (32) of these TV play by play NHL jobs in the world. Some of these openings get hundreds of applications. John should land on his feet because he's the best, he's always prepared, is known and he plays well with others. But as a rule, these guys do have a very very rare and sweet gig that can be lost forever. So I guess I get Tripp signing. 

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On 7/17/2020 at 9:17 AM, top-shelf-1 said:

And this is what I hope the people hating on Shaya or Mike will remember.

No Shaya.....just no.  I am sure he is a great guy but his voice grates on every nerve.

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4 hours ago, remkin said:

But then what is a "national presence"?

I think it's pretty plain:

4 hours ago, remkin said:

"The new hire could have a national presence, but the club doesn’t want them to miss a number of Lightning games for stints with NBC or another network."

 

i.e., they're fine with their guy doing network games provided it doesn't interfere with his work for the Bolts. I've said it before: Deals like the one John had here, that gave him the best of both worlds, are rare. I wish him luck.

 

4 hours ago, remkin said:

Heck him increasing missing Canes games might have been one thing that got in TD's craw a bit.

Historical context never hurts. It was August of 2018, less than a year after TD bought the team, when conjecture of JF's possible ascension to the network when(ever) Doc retires started, based on the fact that he was already doing so many games. My guess is TD saw that, and saw John's high game count for the network continue the next season and that he missed some Canes games, even though he was being paid by the Canes based on 82. Very likely TD told JF after last season he didn't much like it, and when John objected, TD said, fine, you get a one-year deal and we'll talk again. Then again this season, John took network games and missed Canes' games and TD still had to pay him (and Shaya to boot). So TD said, "You know what? You want to be an independent contractor, I can make that happen. I'll pay you every time you work for me." And John said nope.

 

This is why I find all the "anger" about this pretty hard to justify. I'd like to see anyone here saying "Pay the man" hire somebody to, I dunno, install a new kitchen. He puts in 90 percent of the cabinets, but gives you a bill for the full amount. Would you happily pay? I doubt it. AND ALSO pay someone else to come in and finish the job?

 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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2 hours ago, coastal_caniac said:

PAY

THE

MAN

...and I already have an updated kitchen, I'm a handy guy.

I knew you'd post this the minute I wrote that :)

 

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4 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I think it's pretty plain:

 

i.e., they're fine with their guy doing network games provided it doesn't interfere with his work for the Bolts. I've said it before: Deals like the one John had here, that gave him the best of both worlds, are rare. I wish him luck.

 

Historical context never hurts. It was August of 2018, less than a year after TD bought the team, when conjecture of JF's possible ascension to the network when(ever) Doc retires started, based on the fact that he was already doing so many games. My guess is TD saw that, and saw John's high game count for the network continue the next season and that he missed some Canes games, even though he was being paid by the Canes based on 82. Very likely TD told JF after last season he didn't much like it, and when John objected, TD said, fine, you get a one-year deal and we'll talk again. Then again this season, John took network games and missed Canes' games and TD still had to pay him (and Shaya to boot). So TD said, "You know what? You want to be an independent contractor, I can make that happen. I'll pay you every time you work for me." And John said nope.

 

This is why I find all the "anger" about this pretty hard to justify. I'd like to see anyone here saying "Pay the man" hire somebody to, I dunno, install a new kitchen. He puts in 90 percent of the cabinets, but gives you a bill for the full amount. Would you happily pay? I doubt it. AND ALSO pay someone else to come in and finish the job?

 

Speculation about a conversation you were not a party to doesn’t make it “very likely.” Also, we have no way to know that John’s contract required him to call all 82 games. It could well have allowed him a certain number of missed games to call games for NBC. Maybe even reduced his pay pro rata for each game missed. None of us know, one way or the other. 

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I knew you'd post this the minute I wrote that :)

 

It was easy.  It's Forslund we are talking about here.  Happy summer.  🍉

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27 minutes ago, bluedevilcane said:

Speculation about a conversation you were not a party to doesn’t make it “very likely.” Also, we have no way to know that John’s contract required him to call all 82 games. It could well have allowed him a certain number of missed games to call games for NBC. Maybe even reduced his pay pro rata for each game missed. None of us know, one way or the other. 

We know that he was never an independent contractor before, that Dundon would only renew if he is one now, and that he would be paid per game with a bonus for revenue. I can put 2 and 2 together and I think you can too.

 

Still, you apparently missed that I prefaced everything with this: 

4 hours ago, top-shelf-1 said:

My guess is TD saw that,

 

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19 minutes ago, coastal_caniac said:

It was easy.  It's Forslund we are talking about here.  Happy summer.  🍉

I'd love him to stay. He chose not to.

 

Happy summer to you too!

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38 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

I'd love him to stay. He chose not to.

 

Yeah, that selfish employee.  At least that's the connotation I get vibes on reading your unwavering position.  Which is fine, for you.  I'm done with this, it's pretty clear I think you could easily pick out the face of the franchise from any selected lineup. Pay the man, I hope, and the bank account won't suffer.  TD's not mine. 

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

We know that he was never an independent contractor before, that Dundon would only renew if he is one now, and that he would be paid per game with a bonus for revenue. I can put 2 and 2 together and I think you can too.

 

Still, you apparently missed that I prefaced everything with this: 

 

Forgive the lawyer in me, but saying something based upon your “guess” is “very likely” is completely incongruous. But I respect your right to have a different opinion from my own. My guess is that when the 90% of Canes fans who have not followed this story tune in on August 1st and hear Mike instead of John, there will be a lot of unhappy Canes fans. Dundon is a billionaire, as is retired mutual fund manager Jeff Vinik who owns the Lightning. Whatever salary Forslund was making/would make is a rounding error in the total cost of operating a NHL team. As Coastal says ... “PAY THE MAN!”

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10 hours ago, bluedevilcane said:

Dundon is a billionaire, as is retired mutual fund manager Jeff Vinik who owns the Lightning. Whatever salary Forslund was making/would make is a rounding error in the total cost of operating a NHL team.

And forgive the businessman in me, but how do you think he got that way? You're entitled to your opinion too, esquire, but it's not about the money. It's about enforcing contractual obligations. TD clearly didn't like the terms of the old one and made a new offer. John clearly doesn't like it, so he's walking away. That's business.

 

If a player tried the same play John is, all of us here would say let his @$$ walk. You're either under contract or you're not. John's not, and he made that choice. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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48 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

If a player tried the same play John is, all of us here would say let his @$$ walk

 

Unless you happen to be Aho who accepted an offer sheet from Montreal. We weren't going to let his talent walk and I don't think we should let the talent of Forslund walk.

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In an ideal non-pandemic scenario I would be squarely in the “let’s keep Johnny at all cost” camp. But I must say that the optics of this situation really aren’t in John’s favor when other employees have been asked to make sacrifices. If John can land a better opportunity for himself and his family then more power to him. 

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The Title that sums it up for me would be: Should The Fans Get the Best Experience Watching Hurricanes Games on TV? 

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