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Offseason Talk 2020

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1 hour ago, gocanes0506 said:

Where is everyone going to go this off-season?  They are projecting a bunch of teams will have smaller internal budgets this season. 

Well this  is the year  for teams to  keep or  get rid of  any talent they dont want snatched up  by seattle .   So  it's possible a lot  of  guys will not be options for   the kraken to make  a strong team  like vegas   cause  lots of teams  have more time  to  prepare . 

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To finish out the Pronman series:


It looked promising as Washington, Pittsburgh and Islanders were in the bottom 5.  But it didn’t end well with NJ and Rangers getting 1-2.  Rangers being number one and adding another generational player on top of that suuuuuccckkkss. NJ I am not to worried about because they aren’t very good, yet. The only thing that can slow the Rangers train the next 2 years is them having high amounts of performance bonus carryover.  Rangers will have close to 11 million in potential performance bonuses next year.  They will also have little cap space this season with anchors like Staal, Smith, and Lundy.  one positive: we’ll move up next season with Toronto falling out of the top 15.  We wont subtract anyone and potentially add 3 more to the list.
Metro:

1. Rangers

2. Devils

5. Canes

10. Philly

19. CBJs

27. NYIs

30. Pittsburgh

31. Washington

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11 hours ago, Canesfanforever said:

Well this  is the year  for teams to  keep or  get rid of  any talent they dont want snatched up  by seattle .   So  it's possible a lot  of  guys will not be options for   the kraken to make  a strong team  like vegas   cause  lots of teams  have more time  to  prepare . 

Isn't it interesting that the golden Knights were not a 1 year phenomenon?  Here they are playing in the Western Conference Finals.  As a side note, the Canes former prospect, Nicholas Roy, has become a fixture in Las Vegas.  That should read "it was a mistake to trade him" to my fellow contributors.  We have a team filled with fast nifty finesse players and few big guys.  Jordan Staal is big, Joel Edmundson is big, Dougie Hamilton is big.  Not many Canes play big, and when I look at what it will take to get to the promised land, and I am in fact repeating myself, it is maybe 2 more players that play big.  Did our goaltenders lose the Boston series for us?  Well, there may have been a couple of soft goals, I grant you.  But, besides missing Pesce, it was the general getting out muscled that did the Canes in, IMO.  Shipping out a big player like Roy for one year of Haula (which did not last that long), seemed like buying a used Rambler in exchange for some Amazon stock shares, before they were valuable.

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32 minutes ago, beboplar said:

Nicholas Roy, has become a fixture in Las Vegas.  That should read "it was a mistake to trade him" to my fellow contributors.  We have a team filled with fast nifty finesse players and few big guys.  Jordan Staal is big, Joel Edmundson is big, Dougie Hamilton is big.  Not many Canes play big... Shipping out a big player like Roy for one year of Haula (which did not last that long), seemed like buying a used Rambler in exchange for some Amazon stock shares, before they were valuable.

Roy is doing well with Vegas, but just my opinion, but I'd pump the breaks on it as a disaster just yet. Roy was on a 29 point pace in the regular season, and a 36 point pace in the playoffs, with almost all of those being assists. He's doing well based on expectations, but that can happen when you trade prospects. Also, while Roy is big, he doesn't play a physical game, so that part is really not an issue. You want a rough and tough physical player, that's not Roy. Time will tell just how good he'll be at the NHL level. He could continue to develop into a very good NHL player and in the end it could well be a miss for us, or he could fade. I'll admit, he looks to end up being a nice NHL player.

 

However, the tough thing about trades is that they take a long time to fully play out. We used Haula in a package to get Trochek. Trochek is a lock for 50 points over the next few years with a 70 point season logged in the NHL. Roy is anything but that. He could end up being that, but he might not too. In fairness we also traded Wallmark and Priskie along with Haula for Trochek, so if Priskie ends up being an NHL stud, and Trochek struggles, that whole string could end up being negative for us still. I think it is too soon to tell on Trochek, but to my eye he has the most upside of all of our veteran forward acquisitions. I still think he ends up as a solid, productive center that vastly outscores Roy.

 

The thing is that we were then, as we are now, benefiting from Francis' stockpiling of talent, including a newfound skill at finding late round talent in the draft (Roy was a 4th rounder, and one of the first high upside lower round guys we picked). But the benefit of that is too many prospects than we have NHL spots. The benefit of that is that we can use prospects in trades for players. So we've moved out a pretty large bunch of prospects in trades recently: Kuokkanen, Loustarenin, Zykov, Priskie, Roy, Gauthier, etc. That one or two might become NHL players is not necessarily bad. 

 

Also, Roy was drafted in 2015 (Hanifin, Aho draft). I think he might have had to be waived to bring him up/down? If true, it's an even bigger issue, with getting the guy NHL time because you can't yo-yo him up and down with the AHL. 

 

Finally, we had Geekie in the wings. Roy may end up being better than Geekie, but I'd still bet on Geekie, who seems secure in the NHL two full years younger and taking what would be Roy's spot. 

 

I do think we need to be careful with our prospects though, but getting young guys NHL ice time is going to be hard with a good, young NHL team. In some situations, it's a sign of our drafting success more than bad trades.

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Francis  never had a fair shake at being gm .   Given what  Rutherford  gave the team to work with  was it any surprise  that it was a struggle in the short amount of time  Francis   had to deal with  a owner that did not want to do anything  ( karmanos )  and a former  gm that only had  from his  " drafting skills "  slavin , pesce to work with ? lindholm and  hanifin and skinner were crap shoots,   you are bound to get at least something  at those spots . 

 

Waddell gets praised  for his drafting  but we have yet to see anyone he has drafted  other than Svechnikov  ( which is  obvious why he is played )   so im still waiting to make a fair estimate on How actually good Waddell is as gm .     It's too soon to  judge   him being good or bad yet .   It takes times .    I do wonder how much of this team is  by Waddells design or Brind'Amours .     Cause i get the feeling that What ever Brindy wants he will get  because Dundon Adores and worships the ground that Rod walks on . 

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1 hour ago, Canesfanforever said:

Francis  never had a fair shake at being gm .   Given what  Rutherford  gave the team to work with  was it any surprise  that it was a struggle in the short amount of time  Francis   had to deal with  a owner that did not want to do anything  ( karmanos )  and a former  gm that only had  from his  " drafting skills "  slavin , pesce to work with ? lindholm and  hanifin and skinner were crap shoots,   you are bound to get at least something  at those spots . 

 

Waddell gets praised  for his drafting  but we have yet to see anyone he has drafted  other than Svechnikov  ( which is  obvious why he is played )   so im still waiting to make a fair estimate on How actually good Waddell is as gm .     It's too soon to  judge   him being good or bad yet .   It takes times .    I do wonder how much of this team is  by Waddells design or Brind'Amours .     Cause i get the feeling that What ever Brindy wants he will get  because Dundon Adores and worships the ground that Rod walks on . 

Right now the team is a mix if all three GMs.  The difference in the 3 GMs:

JR sucked at drafting until 2010. All of sudden he was finding talent in rounds 2 and later.

Francis was fantastic at finding diamond in the rough in rounds 2-5 but wasnt great at 1st round talent. Drafted big bodies that played well. They typically have skating flaws. One exception was Necas. He went skating and skill over size.

Waddell: basically moving all the big body guys who are weak skaters out and trying to get NHL players or better skating prospects. Drafting great skaters, size not important. Bean is still around because he is a good skater.

 

Rutherford: Staal, McGinn, Slavin, Pesce

Francis: Fleury, Foegele, Bishop, Bean, Aho, Cotton, Necas, Geekie, Teuvo

Waddell: everyone else.

 

Rutherford and Francis' impact will be felt on the team for a very long time with Slavin, Pesce, Aho, Necas, and Turbo expected to be here for a long time.  Staal maybe too.  TBH their impacts will probably last longer than Waddell as GM.

 

We can discuss the difference in a large team vs skating team.  The series against Boston the last 2 years seems like it should favor the big teams.  Remember the NHL is already 75% the way there to skating over big body dudes punishing each other.  Once the dinosaurs on Washington and Boston are gone, only the really good skating big guys will be left.  I think we are in a good spot to be competitive / ahead of the curve in 2 years.

Edited by gocanes0506

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Francis getting Teuvo from Chicago and drafting Aho were two pretty sweet moves. TT was stolen for a salary dump, and Aho a second round pick. The TT theft was a master move. The Aho draft pick may have had some help, and some luck, but he made the pick.

 

I'd be a bit kinder on Francis' first round, but he did end up focusing on D and that hurt his first draft IMO. But Necas was actually IMO a very nice pick too. He slid, and Francis snapped him up. I'll bet in a redraft in a couple of years, Necas would go around #5 instead of #12. (But that's being some pretty stellar players: Nico Hishier, Miro Heiskanen, Cale Makar and Elias Petterson).

 

Where Francis went wrong IMO, was going D against the BPA in 2014. Fleury is going to, IMO, end up being a good NHL D man, but both William Nylander and Nikolaj Ehlers were still there for the taking. The next year with Hanifin, Mikko Rantanen was there. But in all fairness, few, if any of us disagreed with the Hanifin pick. In retrospect Provorov and even more so Werenski would have been better D picks, but they were not ranked higher than Hanifin who most had by far the #1 D man. 

 

With Bean I really can't fault that pick because the best forwards were gone (outside of DeBrincat who everyone passed on in the first round). Yes, we passed on Charley McAvoy, but no one drafts perfectly. That 2016 draft is a pretty weak draft overall and especially by our picks. If Bean is a late developing D man or if we can trade him for a prove forward that impacts the top 6 eventually, we really did pretty well given it's weakness, and if Joey Keane turns into an NHL player (for Gauthier) then even better.

 

Not saying Francis knocked it out of the part in the first round, but few if any GM's get every pick right. I would be nice to have Ehlers instead of Fleury, but who knows? He's been trade rumored. 

 

Rutherford's most unheralded moves have to be drafting Pesce and Slavin late. But it does point out that, as you mentioned, there are 3 GMS with a hand in this team as is and it's prospects. 

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While Francis made a good move and picked a few good players in rounds 2-5, he wouldnt have stayed in positive light for long.  In fact he was already thought of negatively because of the team's lack of offense / goal tending and his lack of moves to improve it.  A big team with Roy, Gauthier, Geekie, etc would have been tough to play against but would have still under performed.  

Edited by gocanes0506
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3 hours ago, Canesfanforever said:

Francis  never had a fair shake at being gm .

 

 

I fully believe that Francis lost the job when TD came in and gave him the go-ahead to make the team better immediately and Francis proceeded to sit on his hands and preach patience, which is the last thing TD wanted.  Therefore i think Francis totally had a fair shake but blew it.  Learning experience.  Now with a clean slate he can put together the team he wants from scratch, and i do wish him well.  But i do think he had enough control over his situation that had he just made a trade, he may still be here.  In 4 years as GM he didn't make a single player-for-player trade because he was apparently insistent on 'winning' any trade he made and in concentrating on winning the battle, he lost the war.

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Well I'm pretty sure Francis would have picked Svech as that was a bit of a "duh". Only time will tell how the rest of the committee's drafts will work out, it's very encouraging, but not yet proven, and we have no way of knowing how Francis would have drafted besides picking Svech.

 

I do think that the problem with Francis was being unable to transition from accumulating drafted and traded for prospects to making deals that improved the team, including using those prospects to do it. The TT trade was highway robbery, but sometimes you gotta make a hockey trade too. He never seemed to meet a deal he liked after that one.  Also, of course, it seems Francis didn't want to be the GM on a committee.

 

Time will tell on the committee's moves, but at least they've been making moves. (Most will depend on signing Hamilton, followed by what Trochek and Skjei can do in terms of the trades). 

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4 hours ago, Canesfanforever said:

. . .

 

Waddell gets praised  for his drafting  but we have yet to see anyone he has drafted  other than Svechnikov  ( which is  obvious why he is played )   so im still waiting to make a fair estimate on How actually good Waddell is as gm .     It's too soon to  judge   him being good or bad yet .   It takes times .    I do wonder how much of this team is  by Waddells design or Brind'Amours .     Cause i get the feeling that What ever Brindy wants he will get  because Dundon Adores and worships the ground that Rod walks on . 

 

Yeah, I also wonder about the influence of each member of The Committee. I'd add Tulsky as a probable highly influential voice, maybe even more so than Waddell. 

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It will be interesting to see who Francis will select in the expansion draft next year  But i kinda already know what kind of team he wants  something  similar to  a early 90's  style   pittsburgh penguins  which what he was trying to give the canes when he was the gm .    Big  tough players that  can control the puck and get it deep .    The kraken wont be  good like vegas   was when they came into the league cause i seriously doubt that  many teams will  trade draft picks to seattle  so that the kraken  would  take other players instead  . 

 

But i can lay you money that   Francis  will be tanking the team  none the less for the first two  years  of that clubs existence  for  draft prospects  that  are highly  touted for 2022 and 2023 .  If that  team  were to manage to get either  Shane Wright , Brad Lambert ,  Mathew Savoie  ,  or   Connor Bedard  , Matvei  Michkov  the next year ?   good god   that team  will be  ready to go  come 2023- 2024  season .  

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On 9/10/2020 at 7:37 PM, AWACSooner said:

This is a guy we should be going after in free agency to give some protection and physicality to the team:
https://www.tsn.ca/agent-ottawa-senators-d-mark-borowiecki-set-to-test-free-agency-1.1522088

I read this the other day, then looked at Borowiecki's stats. Granted I don't know much about the guy AWACS, and maybe this was a "tongue in cheek" comment, but I'v got to say, you can't be serious? I've seen enough of Michael Ferland, and looking at this guy's record, he makes Ferland look like a stalwart. I mean has he ever played a full season? Besides, didn't I read that not only is he a native Ottawan, but that they plan to make it possible for him to retire a Senator?

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3 minutes ago, Stealth-ch1 said:

He's a UFA, so they just traded his rights. Better to get something for a guy that likely wasn't coming back.

True. Saw someone complaining that we traded Justin Faulk for a 5th round pick, but to me Bokk is more intriguing in that trade anyway, and Faulk showed why he was expendable this year with the Blues?

Edited by KJUNKANE

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2 hours ago, KJUNKANE said:

I read this the other day, then looked at Borowiecki's stats. Granted I don't know much about the guy AWACS, and maybe this was a "tongue in cheek" comment, but I'v got to say, you can't be serious? I've seen enough of Michael Ferland, and looking at this guy's record, he makes Ferland look like a stalwart. I mean has he ever played a full season? Besides, didn't I read that not only is he a native Ottawan, but that they plan to make it possible for him to retire a Senator?

No, I meant it.  This guy is an enforcer in every sense of the word, and hits like there’s no tomorrow.  

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11 minutes ago, AWACSooner said:

No, I meant it.  This guy is an enforcer in every sense of the word, and hits like there’s no tomorrow.  

And while we need that, If he can't last but 65 games, does that help?

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35 minutes ago, KJUNKANE said:

True. Saw someone complaining that we traded Justin Faulk for a 5th round pick, but to me Bokk is more intriguing in that trade anyway, and Faulk showed why he was expendable this year with the Blues?

Thing is with Bokk   is  he is a pretty Raw Talent .   There is no knowing  how his development will  pan out .   He is currently playing in the SHL  which is considered the 4th best league in the world :  My only issue with the SHL  is the league forbids  checking  ,  and  that could hinder him some  if he were to make it to the nhl .   Obviously  the idea is to get him out of the SHL  and bring him into the AHL  to play with the Wolves this coming season  if there is a season , then the plan would be to get   him used to the life  of a league that plays on nhl size ice and  does  allow checking  .   There is  a lot of potential  but there is a lot of questions . 

Edited by Canesfanforever

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2 hours ago, Canesfanforever said:

Thing is with Bokk   is  he is a pretty Raw Talent .   There is no knowing  how his development will  pan out .   He is currently playing in the SHL  which is considered the 4th best league in the world :  My only issue with the SHL  is the league forbids  checking  ,  and  that could hinder him some  if he were to make it to the nhl .   Obviously  the idea is to get him out of the SHL  and bring him into the AHL  to play with the Wolves this coming season  if there is a season , then the plan would be to get   him used to the life  of a league that plays on nhl size ice and  does  allow checking  .   There is  a lot of potential  but there is a lot of questions . 


Bokk no longer plays in the SHL. He will play in the German DEL for Krefeld this coming season.

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On 9/11/2020 at 4:01 PM, realmdrakkar said:

 

 

I fully believe that Francis lost the job when TD came in and gave him the go-ahead to make the team better immediately and Francis proceeded to sit on his hands and preach patience, which is the last thing TD wanted.  Therefore i think Francis totally had a fair shake but blew it.  Learning experience.  Now with a clean slate he can put together the team he wants from scratch, and i do wish him well.  But i do think he had enough control over his situation that had he just made a trade, he may still be here.  In 4 years as GM he didn't make a single player-for-player trade because he was apparently insistent on 'winning' any trade he made and in concentrating on winning the battle, he lost the war.

 

I forget what deadline it was.  But we were 8n the thick of it and Francis did nothing.  I remmeber that one.

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46 minutes ago, bluedevil58 said:

 

I forget what deadline it was.  But we were 8n the thick of it and Francis did nothing.  I remmeber that one.

2018

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Wow, we have baseball winding down, college football starting up, NHL conference finals week and pro football starting tomorrow. My biggest thrill of the weekend is getting a 5th round draft pick for Eddie!!! Woo woo!!!

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31 minutes ago, BadgerCane1958 said:

Wow, we have baseball winding down, college football starting up, NHL conference finals week and pro football starting tomorrow. My biggest thrill of the weekend is getting a 5th round draft pick for Eddie!!! Woo woo!!!

It's crazy that all major sports  are playing at the same time .  Baseball , Basketball ,Football  and Hockey .  Not sure if  MLS  or Lacross would count but out of the 4 major sports  it's kinda  neat . 

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A heads up to anyone interested. Just finished watching a great Netflix documentary called ‘Ice Guardians.’ Covers multiple aspects of the Enforcer position. All based on quality interviews, on ice clips, teammates and so on. (Our own) Kevin Westgarth plays a large role in the discussion; Princeton grad, now works for NHL. 

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