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Offseason Talk 2020

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3 hours ago, raleighcaniac said:


Canes are back sliding into Candy Cane territory again. Having a physical element to the teams playing style will ensure they don’t get b***h slapped in the playoffs like Boston has done to them the last two years. It’s no surprise to see heavier playing teams go deeper into the playoffs. Who’s going to stop the other team from working over our first line? Canes need to add a few more willing types if they expect to be playoff contenders. 

We have the personnel not to be. The style of play we are playing has backed off hitting.  

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I don’t see the heavy teams showing much respect to this Canes edition next season because there is no-one to step up in a meaningful way when they work over an Aho or the other kids. We have too many ‘nice guys.’  We need more temperamental types.  Marty will step in now and again but that’s about it and although he’ll do it it’s not his game. All the great ones are able to play their A game because they know liberties won’t be taken with them on account of who’s on their team. Just my opinion but when I see a nasty after whistle scrum developing ie. Svech takes a cheap shot I shake my head at the players reluctance/fear to jump in and take the guy to the woodshed for hacking at a superstar. Would never happen in Boston or St. Louis or Tampa or Dallas etc. Never. 

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After watching your captain almost get his head taken off on a viscous hit, you would think somebody would actually try and respond and do something.  Instead, not one player responded and the team proceeded to get abused for the rest of the game.  Something needs to be done.  No way that should be allowed to happen.

 

I was actually embarrassed to be a Canes fan at that moment.  

 

 

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On Dudley, here's what happened. I don't know if you all remember, at the time of Forslund's sayonara, the organ eye zay shun saying that all but two people had agreed to reduced compensation, but given the timing, it's pretty clear who the other one was.

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On the physicality issue, yup: We're going in the wrong direction. But there are still moves to be made, still dead weight to be shed (Nino, Dzingel, in a perfect world Staal) and I have to trust that those slots will be filled by a couple of non-Ferland Ferlands (i.e., guys who can throw hits and/or punches without missing the next 10 games). 

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4 hours ago, raleighcaniac said:

I don’t see the heavy teams showing much respect to this Canes edition next season because there is no-one to step up in a meaningful way when they work over an Aho or the other kids. We have too many ‘nice guys.’  We need more temperamental types.  Marty will step in now and again but that’s about it and although he’ll do it it’s not his game. All the great ones are able to play their A game because they know liberties won’t be taken with them on account of who’s on their team. Just my opinion but when I see a nasty after whistle scrum developing ie. Svech takes a cheap shot I shake my head at the players reluctance/fear to jump in and take the guy to the woodshed for hacking at a superstar. Would never happen in Boston or St. Louis or Tampa or Dallas etc. Never. 

It continues to astound me how we always seem to get into a debate when this subject is brought up, one side saying the league is transitioning to more speed, thus "goonery" is passe, while the other points as you have here raleighcaniac to instances where liberties and absence of retaliation open up the perceived door to key player injury? Then we go thru a litany of sub qualifiers to further define the situation like "staged fighting is gone", "knuckle draggers are archaic", "team toughness is what is necessary", or several other shades of gray that are all understandable, BUT have not stopped the heaviness typically wielded but a select few teams against us that seems to cause our guys to go into a shell.Now granted "team toughness" is a way to put a stop to this, but how long does it take to develop that culture? Maybe my eyesight has become jaded through years of seeing our players abused and no-one it seems coming to stand up to this 💩but I'd sure like to have a Stu Grissom or even a Tim Gleason on this team?   

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Unfortunately, the playoffs and regular season are very different.

 

The veteran teams know where they can get away with slashing, knee to the back to the leg, etc and get away with in the playoffs.  They know the refs are going to call those gunny plays tight.  

 

I think we need a top 6 that plays the skating game well and let the bottom 6 be the physical part.  For some reason we didnt ask McGinn, Martinook, and Foegele to hit that much this season. 

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19 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

The veteran teams know where they can get away with slashing, knee to the back to the leg, etc and get away with in the playoffs.  They know the refs are going to call those gunny plays tight. 

 

So during one of the recent playoff games, there was a puck over the glass resulting in a power play.  For whatever reason, the XM guys have to bring this up.  "Should puck over the glass be automatic penalty?"  Blah, blah.  They seem to want to go back to the old days of "intentional" puck over glass calls.

 

Then they interviewed Marty Biron and he was very clear that he was quite OK with the new rule.  He recalled a pre-06 playoff game where (the way he recalled it), a player lofted the puck over the glass looking at the ref, and basically saying "I dare you."   Of course, it was a tight playoff game, so the ref just ignored it.  No call.  The team pinned in their zone got relief.  The play reset.  The teams reset, and of course play came rushing back to Marty with fresh players and he was scored against.

 

The player knew he wouldn't get called against.  It was the playoffs.  So, yeah, we saw plenty of this these playoffs.  The Canes even took advantage a few times, but likely not enough.

 

As for puck over the glass.  Get over it, commentators.  Just because it was an "accident" doesn't mean you shouldn't pay.

Edited by wxray1

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1 hour ago, top-shelf-1 said:

On Dudley, here's what happened. I don't know if you all remember, at the time of Forslund's sayonara, the organ eye zay shun saying that all but two people had agreed to reduced compensation, but given the timing, it's pretty clear who the other one was.

 

 

Quite possible.  I can't imagine he didn't take a cut anyway, unless TD is really cheap.  I can't imagine being an 'advisor' pays as much as his old gig here as Senior Vice President of Hockey Operations.

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I do think that there is a place still for physical intimidation. It's a physical game. But there are two sides to that coin. If a team retaliates there is at least a 2 minute minor to kill, and sometimes more. This is a critical playoff game. Also, to my eye, the "retaliation" is toothless 75% of the time. A push, or a shove, or a "hey you can't do that". So, drop the gloves. OK, but chances are your goon is not on the ice. You cannot come off the bench and hit a guy on the ice or you're ejected and more penalty time. And usually the offender won't dance. 

 

I will admit that some pundits and a lot of observers agreed that the non response to the Staal hit was a bad thing. I've just watched this debate rage for every year I've been on here and attempts to fix it, end up being flashes and not sustained. Early on it was about goons. Kevin "the pylon" Westgarth anyone? Then it was finding tough guys who could sort of play. At one point we actually had one Ruutu, but like Ferland, his hockey effectiveness was short-lived. The game has unquestionable gotten faster and more skilled. Used to be the tough guys could get by with a C- hockey game, and the goons a D+ hockey game. Those days are pretty gone.

 

So J gets hit hard. Our most physical guy goes over and takes a lob swing and barely misses, pushed the guy around a little and takes a penalty. Other team scores. Really worth it? Maybe in the regular season, or game one while trying to establish some bonefides with the other team, but in an elmination game. Many observers would say we took the bait. Our Captain was abused. We "saved face" with a minor retaliation. They get a PP.  So to do the math: 

 

Kill Captain + PP vs. face wash and a push and some bad language. 

 

The real retaliation is to hit that guy hard later on. Over and over and over the term is "team toughness". The team has to dish out the hits consistently. But then you have to be careful not to overemphasize this. Ferland was a wonderful addition. Until he wasn't. The team went on it's massive run mostly with him out or ineffective. We did not have to have him hitting people to win like crazy including going deep in the playoffs. 

 

We've been pining for a couple physical players for years. But here's what's happened. They come in and fire everyone up. They look great. Then they fizzle, get injured, or can't really play otherwise and they're soon gone. There really are not many of the true talents that are also tough guys out there. If we find one, sure, let's try again. But it's been a mostly losing proposition. And we've still managed to win a cup and go to conference finals as we are.

 

Boston did not beat us because of one hit to Jordan Staal. The series was already over before that. They won by combining tenacious defense that allowed no time or space 95% of the time all over the ice, with elite offensive playmaking skill. 

 

Goons are gone. Unless you have the rare Chara or other big guy who can play and who is on the ice a lot, then you need a tough guy on every line if the plan is an immediate response. 

 

Look, I'll still concede that teams do need that "sandpaper". Having a couple of wingers and D men who are competent at NHL offense or Defense who are tough and hit is good. But it's like adding pepper to a dish. You can go too far with it. McGinn can hit. Foegele can be gritty. Sure, find another one.

 

My takeaway from Boston. Watch how hard they defend every inch of ice. And watch how hard their stars work to create offense. If we'd have had that advantage over them, the way they did over us, that hit on Staal wouldn't have mattered because we'd have been up 3-1 and about to win game 5 instead of the other way around.

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After taking that position, let me say this. I do miss Edmundson. I don't think paying him $3.5M is too much. He was making $3M already. I like what he brought. Despite being notably slow for this fast team, he was competent, actually put in more goals than 85% of our historic D men, and was a big, physical presence. This is a nice NHL D Man. Personally, I'd have kept him over Gardiner. The problem is he was the UFA. 

 

We just didn't have room for him. We have too much D, especially LHD. I personally hope that we can get Bean on our ice, but if not we need to get a high level forward prospect for him and we'd still be flush with D. Plus the committee seems to love constantly adding defense: CDH, Gardiner, Skjei, just about every off season. 

 

I think that Eddy's steady physical presence did help. I do get lamenting that loss. Even though it's been a mixed bag chasing physical players for this team, he was one that worked.

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Give me a fast skating talented top 6 forward with a little snarl. I'm all for it.

Give me a slow, speed challenged goon and it will cost you more than it will help you.

Goon hockey isn't today's game

 

 

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9 minutes ago, OBXer said:

Give me a fast skating talented top 6 forward with a little snarl. I'm all for it.

Give me a slow, speed challenged goon and it will cost you more than it will help you.

Goon hockey isn't today's game

 

 

That is the fate of the NHL    more speed   and  skill instead of  grit  and grind.   Players can still finish their checks  but for the most part it's about avoiding   head shots and just do   more shoulder to shoulder  stuff in the corner   trying to avoid  numbers on the back . 

Edited by Canesfanforever

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No offense to Willy, but when JW is your tough guy in the playoffs, that doesn't say much for the rest of the team. The teams currently left have a great combo of talent and physical play. The Canes don't need a goon, but having a few physical players would be a good thing. They don't need a dirty guy like Wilson, but I guarantee everybody knows when Wilson is on the ice, and that influences play. When he is playing clean, he's a pretty effective player. I'd just like a few guys that make the other teams a little more cautious when playing against the Canes.

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Just to be clear. If we can find a guy like Ruutu that hits and can play or a guy with snarl, grit, etc. that can play, I'm all for it. Just that they are not that easy to find, and chasing them is the issue IMO. 

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8 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

The Canes don't need a goon, but having a few physical players would be a good thing.

 

Not to be misunderstood,  I'm all for a talented player with an edge. The borderline psychotic Brad Marchand comes to mind. He is as likely to lick you (see what I did there) with a goal in the back of your net as a crosss check to the back of your head, 

 

It won't hurt to get tougher. I would argue we aren't as soft as some here think

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13 minutes ago, remkin said:

Just to be clear. If we can find a guy like Ruutu that hits and can play or a guy with snarl, grit, etc. that can play, I'm all for it. Just that they are not that easy to find, and chasing them is the issue IMO. 

There will be plenty of guys like that in the 2nd an 3rd rounds this year .

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9 minutes ago, Canesfanforever said:

There will be plenty of guys like that in the 2nd an 3rd rounds this year .

Something to look forward to in 2 or 3 years. What about the upcoming season?

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Nah Eric, you helped create a lackadaisical environment and sank this franchise.

 

The Staal family has to be the most unmotivated family I've ever had to watch. 

 

Ok you got me, their the only family I've watched.

 

Edited by legend-1
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3 hours ago, OBXer said:

What about the upcoming season?

Free agency ? Personally  Im not even thinking about free agency  for 4 reasons why  .

 

1.  Canes need to extend  Svechnikov and Hamilton 

2.  They have to figure out now till next year  who to protect  from Seattle 

3.  They  have to make sure they will have enough cap to not have Necas  taken from us  next year .

4.  Canes  still have players they  could  trade out . 

 

So going after a goalie would be nice  if we had the cap to do so reasonably   but the Canes are not on any goalies radar for destinations to go .  

The players  who are to be protected  are Aho , Turbo ,  Svechnikov , Staal , Trocheck , Foegele , Martinook . Slavin , Pesce , Hamilton<--- if he is signed to an extension 

The Cap space is going to be needed  in  a few years ,  I believe the canes might actually try and  offer sheet  Nick Suzuki  from the Habs  as pay back for them offer sheeting Aho ,    but also  to sign  Necas what he wants  to keep on the team . 

 

The Players  I can safely assume  lots of people want to see the canes  get rid of are ,  Nino , Dzingle , Gardiner , Mrazek , McGinn and Staal .

The only players who are likely to move out are Nino and Dzingle  . 

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Again, I feel the need to clarify. Team toughness is good, but most of that has to be organic to some extent. If you draft and trade for too many of those guys, you can't compete. 

 

Still, this is a physical game. You need guys who hit. You need there to be a price for guys holding onto pucks too long, dangling too much. Your team defense can't look like an All Star game. I guess I think it's more about making hits than fighting. And I think retaliating is ideally done with a big hit later rather than drawing a penalty right after. 

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3 hours ago, legend-1 said:

 

 

 

Nah Eric, you helped create a lackadaisical environment and sank this franchise.

 

The Staal family has to be the most unmotivated family I've ever had to watch. 

 

Ok you got me, their the only family I've watched.

 

I always E Staal was the kind of player that benefitted from playing with good players. I didn't think he made the players around him better. Crosby could play with a fire hydrant and a washing machine, and they would both be 50 point scorers. E Staal also seemed to have a lot of quit in him. Still, when he wanted it, he could be an elite player. 

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1 hour ago, caniac6 said:

I always E Staal was the kind of player that benefitted from playing with good players. I didn't think he made the players around him better. Crosby could play with a fire hydrant and a washing machine, and they would both be 50 point scorers. E Staal also seemed to have a lot of quit in him. Still, when he wanted it, he could be an elite player. 

 

 

Dude could totally take control of a hockey game, when he was ticked off enough.  Problem is he only did it maybe twice the whole time he was here.  But he did have it in him.

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46 minutes ago, realmdrakkar said:

 

 

Dude could totally take control of a hockey game, when he was ticked off enough.  Problem is he only did it maybe twice the whole time he was here.  But he did have it in him.

So many times, Forslund would talk about E. needing to show his extra gear.  But alas, it rarely happened.

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Staal says frankly his final years in Carolina weren’t very good because the team was bad. Said going to Minnesota made him better because the team was better. Says he hopes they find success earlier than later in Buffalo.

— Joe Yerdon (@JoeYerdon) September 18, 2020
If this is a true statement it really pi%$#s me off.  This is exactly why he should have never been the Captain.   It was his team to help make better.         I'm not sure how Eric made so much money in Carolina and then has the audacity to bad mouth his former team thus his teammates.     Wow what a classless ego.  I actually met him a couple of times and been to his hometown of Thunder Bay Ontario.  I am so puzzled because he seemed like a nice guy. 
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