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Offseason Talk 2020

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3 hours ago, AWACSooner said:

That video makes me smile...

And it's all about awareness, and being unwilling to get rolled. It is not a difficult play, but you have to want the contact and to make the guy think twice next time he's thinks about targeting you. Our guys are too often shying away from contact, and I literally cannot recall the last time any Cane threw a reverse. 

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5 hours ago, remkin said:

this team does hit.

But not consistently, and that's the problem: You never know which Canes you're going to get. Boston--you freakin' know, every time out.

 

Over the years, rem, we've both watched innumerable games where this team comes out strong, flying. The forecheck's going, they're finishing checks in every zone, they score early--and the next thing you know, they are letting the play come to them, instead of continuing to dictate it. Or they come out totally flat and lose big to a mediocre team--only to completely dominate the next game, which always, somehow, seems to be against whomever's in first place in the conference.

 

Physicality is definitely finishing checks and standing up for each other, but it is so much more. It's having both the stamina and the will--no, the burning desire--to play hard for every puck, and to take the play to the opponent every single shift of every single period of every single game, all season long. And guys who play that way tend to miss fewer games due to injury, because when someone does get hurt, 99 times out of 100, it is not the aggressor. (Except Micheal Ferland.)

 

To me, the culture on this team will not be where it needs to be until this is how everybody approaches every game, and possesses both the skill and the physical capacity to play that way, 60 minutes a night.

 

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13 hours ago, remkin said:

Is it a philosophy missing from the current team or a lack of physically aggressive personnel? How many do we need to add, and at what positions? 

I've thought for quite sometime on this rem, and quite frankly have no answer, BUT that's not to say you just throw your hands up and retreat into that safe place. The answer is a little of all? As you've mentioned, Ruutu years ago won over our collective Canes' hearts after stepping off that plane, coming to the arena and throwing that massive hit on his 1st shift. Ferland too was a jewel early on, then the culmination of years of doing so prior to our acquisition caught up with his body. Judging from our attempts to acquire said "tough guys" with some skill rather than Neanderthal types, a team cannot trade from them in their later years, they apparently have to be groomed in one's own system? Not everyone is fortunate enough to happen upon a Wilson type.

 

But I also believe those teams that play with "toughness" do so when EVERYONE buys in on the concept. Ans as top emphasizes in his prior post just ahead of mine, it appears (and you all know by now that the only ice I've skated on, unlike top it seems, has been by mistake) that a player has got to have the fortitude to give as well as take the hits. Collectively, thru the years of my involvement with the game as a couch (nee rink) spectator, the effort I've seen along the lines of what we refer to as "team toughness" has been at best lie a roller coaster? On some occasions, magnificent, while others, completely inept and embarrassing? Truly, IDK why as a team there's this pervasive laissez faire attitude, and I'd love to link it back to the ES yesteryear where the seed was planted, but obviously that should have long since faded?

 

In terms of grooming someone to lead the way in being a Wilson type, a few years back, I recall my excitement when we picked up both Roy and Gauthier, but for some reason, both fizzled. Could it be that our scouts have similar tendencies along the lines of toughness that is pervasive on the team? But again back to Wilson, true, he is the leader there, but like Boston, Dallas, St Louis and several others, Washington has several players who play that tough game, so It's not just a single player. That one guy though can set the example that others join. 

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This  has been a concern of mine for a very long time .   Glad that The  Hockey Guy  brought it up .     What's  your  thoughts ?   

 

Personally  I would love for the NHL to go back to espn  but  only if it makes sense .    With  Espn  connection to  HULU   and  Disney+ having a partnership   it could be a  a good thing for people to get coverage of  much needed hockey games  shown.  

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1 hour ago, Canesfanforever said:

This  has been a concern of mine for a very long time .   Glad that The  Hockey Guy  brought it up .     What's  your  thoughts ?   

 

Personally  I would love for the NHL to go back to espn  but  only if it makes sense .    With  Espn  connection to  HULU   and  Disney+ having a partnership   it could be a  a good thing for people to get coverage of  much needed hockey games  shown.  

 

It's a really bad time for contract negotiations.  We can "wish and hope" about a lot of things, but the fact of the matter is there is chaos out there, and it is putting everyone on a weak footing.  Perhaps the NHL can swing a deal with ESPN/Disney, but I doubt they are going to get the money they want.  Just like the cap will be flat, it is likely that TV contracts will be flat or falling.

 

He touched on a few reasons for the chaos in ratings.  But I think it is more complex than he's making it out to be.  He made a statement that "things will come back."  I contend things will never be the same, at least for a good 5 years.

 

He also mentioned the "victory lap" some in the political sphere are making on ratings.  I think he's right, it isn't all about politics and justice issues.  However, his analogy to the Emmy's is weak because both sports and the Emmy's are entertainment, yet they increasingly are becoming platforms for issues beyond entertainment.  The Emmy's are likely suffering from the same effect as sports.

 

What's complex?  For starters, habits.  Some people just fell out of the habit of sport watching when the Great Sports Vacuum occurred.  But let's throw cord-cutting on top of it.  Cord cutting is a thing, despite the denials from many.  And cord cutting is murder to ESPN.  But you say, "Wait, YoutubeTV, Fubu or Hulu+Live" have sports.  Yes, but a good deal of cord-cutters eschew those expensive options. 

 

I'm just some guy on the internet who watches the Canes, but my story is likely repeatable out there.  When the Great Sports Vacuum occurred, I had to evaluate what the hell I was doing with all my TV dollars, so I ended up cutting the cord.  I did subscribe to YoutubeTV to get the Canes games in the playoffs.  Once they were out, I stopped and went to Philo, which is both sports and news free.  Ah, there's my other beef, the news.  Garbage.  I really don't want to reward those networks right now.

 

Now, I'm not a Never-Again-Shall-I-Watch sports guy because of some hurt feelings over some gesture or statement being made.  But it did wake me up both on the issues (mission accomplished, athletes), but also on what the definition of entertainment is.  Am I getting my entertainment dollar from these leagues?  It got me thinking.  I will consume sports and news more carefully, and probably only in-season.  And when I say "consume," I mean pay for it with a subscription of some sort, like YTTV.

 

Ultimately, that may mean 6 months out of the year.  That materially affects ESPN and Disney.  Sorry for their loss.  They got pretty fat on the constant, easy stream of cash coming in from the cable companies.  Well, it's changing, and ultimately, that's going to make any deal the NHL does with any of the sports providers a huge, huge problem.

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Have I ever said on here how much I despise The Hockey Writers website? Somehow I get their blogs and NEVER have I seen anything on the Canes?

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So guys like John Marino, Ethan Bear, and Matt Roy got votes for the Calder, but none for Necas. Ummm...ok.

 

Everyone is gushing about Nick Suzuki and he got some votes. He had 41 points in 71 games and was -15, while Necas had 36 points in 64 games with a -6. 
 

Necas did get 5 votes for the “All Rookie” team at the forward position, but again Suzuki gets 137 votes. 

I guess that’s the difference between playing in Carolina and Montreal, Los Angeles, Edmonton, and Pittsburgh.

 

Maybe I’m wrong but I think Necas deserved more recognition. 
 

We did have two defensemen get votes for the Norris though (Slavin, who finished 5th in voting, and Hamilton, who finished 7th in voting). 
 

Pretty impressive to have 2 guys finish in the top 7 for the Norris. 
 

Slavin, Hamilton, and Pesce all got votes for the All-Star team on defense. Again, pretty impressive to have 3 defensemen finish in the top 24 in voting.

 

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On 9/20/2020 at 8:54 PM, KJUNKANE said:

I've thought for quite sometime on this rem, and quite frankly have no answer, BUT that's not to say you just throw your hands up and retreat into that safe place. The answer is a little of all? As you've mentioned, Ruutu years ago won over our collective Canes' hearts after stepping off that plane, coming to the arena and throwing that massive hit on his 1st shift. Ferland too was a jewel early on, then the culmination of years of doing so prior to our acquisition caught up with his body. Judging from our attempts to acquire said "tough guys" with some skill rather than Neanderthal types, a team cannot trade from them in their later years, they apparently have to be groomed in one's own system? Not everyone is fortunate enough to happen upon a Wilson type.

 

But I also believe those teams that play with "toughness" do so when EVERYONE buys in on the concept. Ans as top emphasizes in his prior post just ahead of mine, it appears (and you all know by now that the only ice I've skated on, unlike top it seems, has been by mistake) that a player has got to have the fortitude to give as well as take the hits. Collectively, thru the years of my involvement with the game as a couch (nee rink) spectator, the effort I've seen along the lines of what we refer to as "team toughness" has been at best lie a roller coaster? On some occasions, magnificent, while others, completely inept and embarrassing? Truly, IDK why as a team there's this pervasive laissez faire attitude, and I'd love to link it back to the ES yesteryear where the seed was planted, but obviously that should have long since faded?

 

In terms of grooming someone to lead the way in being a Wilson type, a few years back, I recall my excitement when we picked up both Roy and Gauthier, but for some reason, both fizzled. Could it be that our scouts have similar tendencies along the lines of toughness that is pervasive on the team? But again back to Wilson, true, he is the leader there, but like Boston, Dallas, St Louis and several others, Washington has several players who play that tough game, so It's not just a single player. That one guy though can set the example that others join. 

When we talk about wanting the Canes to take a more physical approach, we are not talking about Joe Frazier on skates.  We are talking about players who the other team is looking over their shoulders, getting distracted from their own mission, on the look out for the next big hit.  I don't get to see Canes action game to game, merely highlights which I enjoy watching.  The player who exhibited this physicality, enough to get the other teams' attention, was Haydyn Fleury.  Terrific clean hits.  Say what you will about Martin Necas's development this year, and I agree I was wrong about favoring Gauthier over Necas when they left camp, Fleury grew into  a 20 minute per game defenseman this season.  He may not play on the top 2 defensive lines, because I don't see them pairing him with Pesce, but he nows brings 2nd line talent to the 3rd line.  The only other Canes I can think of that bring that kind of hitting to the fore are Martinook and McGinn.  Certainly, Ferland, Edmundson, and Tamu have the last couple of years, but they are all gone.  I thought Nino was supposed to be that player, but I have not seen much.  

For me, that is the #1 off season goal, to bring in at least 1 more forward who can distract the opposition with his physicality.  Does not have to beat anyone up, although when you bring the hammer, the nail often gets bent out of shape.........

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On 9/20/2020 at 8:23 PM, top-shelf-1 said:

But not consistently, and that's the problem: You never know which Canes you're going to get. Boston--you freakin' know, every time out.

 

Over the years, rem, we've both watched innumerable games where this team comes out strong, flying. The forecheck's going, they're finishing checks in every zone, they score early--and the next thing you know, they are letting the play come to them, instead of continuing to dictate it. Or they come out totally flat and lose big to a mediocre team--only to completely dominate the next game, which always, somehow, seems to be against whomever's in first place in the conference.

 

Physicality is definitely finishing checks and standing up for each other, but it is so much more. It's having both the stamina and the will--no, the burning desire--to play hard for every puck, and to take the play to the opponent every single shift of every single period of every single game, all season long. And guys who play that way tend to miss fewer games due to injury, because when someone does get hurt, 99 times out of 100, it is not the aggressor. (Except Micheal Ferland.)

 

To me, the culture on this team will not be where it needs to be until this is how everybody approaches every game, and possesses both the skill and the physical capacity to play that way, 60 minutes a night.

 

This is the ideal. I agree. The part I bolded I think is getting to what I think I'm on about and with which I completely agree. The big hits have an effect. I'm not saying they don't, but what I noticed even more from Boston was what you wrote above in bold. When we played the Rangers, we had time and space to play. When we played Boston, every inch was contested. I could even sense that guys who were used to having 6 more inches of space were annoyed to have a stick around them all the time. Yes, there were hits too, and that certainly factored into a slight drop in will, but to my eye it was even more the other thing. By having Boston always there right in a guy's grill, it wears down the will. The "fun" almost, of making plays that usually one can do, but now they can't. It's a bit like a guy who can produce at the Juniors, but then gets shut down in the AHL or NHL because the level of defensive competition is a whole 'nuther level. The disparity with Boston wasn't that huge, but it's that idea. Last year, we just finally capitulated to the "we can't beat them" feeling. This year we did better, but in the end just couldn't get there. 

 

As Brind'Amour pointed out though, Boston was not always this way. It took them some ups and downs and a lot of time with the buy-in to get a team that plays that way the vast majority of the time. So, my point would be to work to that type of full team buy-in to that tenacity (as you pointed out in that bolded part). This team is better than those also ran teams of the Eric Staal final years, but they are not yet at Boston's level. Does it mean looking for more Ferlands? IMO that can help, but even then the team tends to sit back and watch Ferland hit people. To get to where Boston is every member of the team has to have that "tenacity" you speak of. For Aho, it's probably not a teeth-rattling hit, but a back check that lifts the puck, but everyone is doing it all the time to their own ability. That, IMO is what Boston does most of the time. Now the uber-skilled Lightening still took Boston down, but they are playing much better team game too. 

 

If this team can mature against the comparison of playing playoff Boston so much, and take on their rink-wide tenacity to battle, good things will come.

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On 9/20/2020 at 11:54 PM, KJUNKANE said:

I've thought for quite sometime on this rem, and quite frankly have no answer, BUT that's not to say you just throw your hands up and retreat into that safe place. The answer is a little of all? As you've mentioned, Ruutu years ago won over our collective Canes' hearts after stepping off that plane, coming to the arena and throwing that massive hit on his 1st shift. Ferland too was a jewel early on, then the culmination of years of doing so prior to our acquisition caught up with his body. Judging from our attempts to acquire said "tough guys" with some skill rather than Neanderthal types, a team cannot trade from them in their later years, they apparently have to be groomed in one's own system? Not everyone is fortunate enough to happen upon a Wilson type.

 

But I also believe those teams that play with "toughness" do so when EVERYONE buys in on the concept. Ans as top emphasizes in his prior post just ahead of mine, it appears (and you all know by now that the only ice I've skated on, unlike top it seems, has been by mistake) that a player has got to have the fortitude to give as well as take the hits. Collectively, thru the years of my involvement with the game as a couch (nee rink) spectator, the effort I've seen along the lines of what we refer to as "team toughness" has been at best lie a roller coaster? On some occasions, magnificent, while others, completely inept and embarrassing? Truly, IDK why as a team there's this pervasive laissez faire attitude, and I'd love to link it back to the ES yesteryear where the seed was planted, but obviously that should have long since faded?

 

In terms of grooming someone to lead the way in being a Wilson type, a few years back, I recall my excitement when we picked up both Roy and Gauthier, but for some reason, both fizzled. Could it be that our scouts have similar tendencies along the lines of toughness that is pervasive on the team? But again back to Wilson, true, he is the leader there, but like Boston, Dallas, St Louis and several others, Washington has several players who play that tough game, so It's not just a single player. That one guy though can set the example that others join. 

Good thoughts Kjun. I do personally think there has to be that perfect blend of a LOT of skill, but enough physical in terms of personnel, but that in the end, the tenacity to battle for everything (as Top discusses) is the most important piece IMO. I loved Ruutu's big hits. And to be sure many of them produced useful turnovers. But, unless a team has multiple Ruutu's, the overall effect is not that big on an entire game, let alone season. Then those guys frequently break down physically too. I also loved Ferland's big hits. They were awesome. And created turnovers. And he scored early on too. BUT, the team actually started and sustained it's massive win streak with Ferland out. 

 

Look, give me a gritty guy who can pot 18 goals on the third line and pester and hit. I'm good with it. But the main thing is getting that Boston-like tenacity to be defensively up in the grill of everyone who touches the puck. That smothering checking game is what ultimately frustrates other teams the most. 

 

On Roy and Gauthier. Both are big, but different. Roy is not physical. He's big in that he's very tall. His game though is still not very physical. Goat is more physical, but still doesn't hit like he could. With that frame, Gauthier could be a terror out there. He doesn't play that way. Roy is having a very nice run in Vegas, but not due to the physical. Gauthier is getting a chance in New York, but has far from proven himself. IMO Gauthier has the hand eye skill, and shot, to be a power winger, but does not have NHL hockey IQ. Time will tell, I guess, but the committee ultimately decided it just wasn't going to work for Gauthier here. Gauthier also could make a living around the net, but not sure he's resigned to going that way as often as required. Anyways, it will be interesting to see how those guy's careers pan out either way.

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8 hours ago, remkin said:

This is the ideal. I agree. The part I bolded I think is getting to what I think I'm on about and with which I completely agree. The big hits have an effect. I'm not saying they don't, but what I noticed even more from Boston was what you wrote above in bold. When we played the Rangers, we had time and space to play. When we played Boston, every inch was contested. I could even sense that guys who were used to having 6 more inches of space were annoyed to have a stick around them all the time. Yes, there were hits too, and that certainly factored into a slight drop in will, but to my eye it was even more the other thing. By having Boston always there right in a guy's grill, it wears down the will. The "fun" almost, of making plays that usually one can do, but now they can't. It's a bit like a guy who can produce at the Juniors, but then gets shut down in the AHL or NHL because the level of defensive competition is a whole 'nuther level. The disparity with Boston wasn't that huge, but it's that idea. Last year, we just finally capitulated to the "we can't beat them" feeling. This year we did better, but in the end just couldn't get there. 

 

As Brind'Amour pointed out though, Boston was not always this way. It took them some ups and downs and a lot of time with the buy-in to get a team that plays that way the vast majority of the time. So, my point would be to work to that type of full team buy-in to that tenacity (as you pointed out in that bolded part). This team is better than those also ran teams of the Eric Staal final years, but they are not yet at Boston's level. Does it mean looking for more Ferlands? IMO that can help, but even then the team tends to sit back and watch Ferland hit people. To get to where Boston is every member of the team has to have that "tenacity" you speak of. For Aho, it's probably not a teeth-rattling hit, but a back check that lifts the puck, but everyone is doing it all the time to their own ability. That, IMO is what Boston does most of the time. Now the uber-skilled Lightening still took Boston down, but they are playing much better team game too. 

 

If this team can mature against the comparison of playing playoff Boston so much, and take on their rink-wide tenacity to battle, good things will come.

I've been following hockey since the early '60's and the Original 6.  I would love to know when the Bruins did NOT play this style of game.  I saw them play umpteen times in Hartford, and there was never a time they did not bring it.  it's their signature.

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24 minutes ago, beboplar said:

As Brind'Amour pointed out though, Boston was not always this way. It took them some ups and downs and a lot of time with the buy-in to get a team that plays that way the vast majority of the time

I dont think Brind'Amour was referring to  what you all have been  discussing  in regards to playing a more physical  game .    I think what  he meant  was how that  the bruins  learned what worked and what did not work  in terms of on ice plays  and  how they were a young team  like the Canes are currently   and  learned  how to overcome  problems   . 

 

Just my  take .   

Edited by Canesfanforever

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1 hour ago, Canesfanforever said:

I dont think Brind'Amour was referring to  what you all have been  discussing  in regards to playing a more physical  game .    I think what  he meant  was how that  the bruins  learned what worked and what did not work  in terms of on ice plays  and  how they were a young team  like the Canes are currently   and  learned  how to overcome  problems   . 

 

Just my  take .   

I am being quoted for something I never said.

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11 hours ago, beboplar said:

I am being quoted for something I never said.

 

I think what happened is beboplar quoted remkin

Canesfan then quoted remkin but from the  quote on beboplar's post

The software can't read where the original remking post came from and attributes the quote to beboplar where the highlighted text within the remkin quote box was made.

To attribute the quote to the correct poster you need to go back to the original post, in this case remkins post and quote it from there.

 

At this point I think we can only be aware of this glitch until a message board upgrade is implemented

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I can't claim any real knowledge as to the impact of physicality, but it does seem to me that this age of players, like most sports currently, is filled with guys who have as a priority the protection and longevity of their bodies to max the number of years and seasons that the grape grows on their vine and is reachable. Contract bonuses, participation clauses, and just cumulative numbers that reflect loudly when contract negotiations roll around in a career are paramount in players and agent's minds. Most Players are going to play, in my opinion, at a level that provides a measure of comfort from long term injury, and is selfishly separated from the team's current needs on a season by season basis, while comparably choosing what's best, stats friendly, and longevity building for their own game and future. If their level of physicality is in a mix team wide that is not noticeably deficient, they seem to be reasonably fitting in and going about that level of business. Physicality at the upper level has to be a team buy in and execution, and ones who don't buy in when it is stated  and carried out as team goals, aren't usually around long. There's THE not really knowing what our management stresses in that area, held alongside our speed, finesse, and defend that we do very well, and then there's the post game and season ending commentary of "not enough" physicality and push back when they get their butts handed to them. Somewhere between there we lie. All players at this level can play with more guts and glory, as to just get here is at least a measure of toughness in itself. The question falls into, "is everyone buying into it". If players judge for themselves that answer to be no, then protecting their own investment devolves into their business model. Just MHO.

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Well, this SCF is over, as the ️ have basically forgot how to play hockey and quit...which I’ve seen far too often this past season with them.  
Have to keep my tv on mute, as Emerick’s fawning over the Bolts is as bad as Pierre’s between the glass commentary 

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57 minutes ago, AWACSooner said:

Well, this SCF is over, as the ️ have basically forgot how to play hockey and quit...which I’ve seen far too often this past season with them.  
Have to keep my tv on mute, as Emerick’s fawning over the Bolts is as bad as Pierre’s between the glass commentary 

Haven't watched much AWACS. Has Khudobin collapsed?

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Khudobin wasn’t good, but he wasn’t that bad. He was hung out to dry. The Stars didn’t show up at all, one of the most listless games by a team I’ve seen in the playoffs. 
 

If you’re a Stars fan you have to be infuriated and confused. It’s the Stanley Cup, if you can’t get motivated for that...

 

Seguin is invisible every night.

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I did not know this until last night  but apparently   2 of the canes prospects  Attoni Honka and  Patrik Puistola    not only play on the same  team in the liiga  but also play with Brad Lambert  who is projected to be a  top  1st round pick come 2022 in the nhl draft  . 

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So Boomer Gordon was a bit miffed about Forslund being out. I guess we've had the debate, and I think Mike being there rather than Shaya, softens the blow and I will enjoy Mike, but I'm still a bit miffed too. I will miss John. Seems unnecessary, but I don't own the team.

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