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LakeLivin

Offseason Talk 2020

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51 minutes ago, remkin said:

Here's a question. Would you do Brady Skjei for that #15 Toronto pick? As much as I'm not enamored with Gardiner, it would let us get Bean in there and maybe even keep Edmundson as an extra and room to sign Hamilton, which is, to me at the top of the list. Hamilton/Slavin/Pesce/Fleury is IMO already a very solid top 4. Put Gardiner/Bean in the bottom pair using Gardiner on  PP2, is pretty solid really and fold in Edumundson and with injuries or vs certain teams.

 

I know it's tough to trade a guy for a draft pick, but the #15 pick in this draft is going to be a very good forward. And if, by some chance we land Askarov, we'd get a very nice forward prospect too. That could be a heck of a draft. Yes, it will take a couple of  years, but given how young this team is? Heck as those guys came in Bean would be solid and Fleury would be peak. And it would clear a ton of future cap....and we seem to be able to find serviceable UFA D men if we needed one later.

 

Am I talking myself into it?

I might make that trade, but in doing so I would also trade Gardiner and resign Edmundson.  With Slavin, Fleury, and Edmundson on the left side and Hamilton, Pesce, and maybe Bean on the right, that would be fine with me.

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1 hour ago, remkin said:

Here's a question. Would you do Brady Skjei for that #15 Toronto pick? As much as I'm not enamored with Gardiner, it would let us get Bean in there and maybe even keep Edmundson as an extra and room to sign Hamilton, which is, to me at the top of the list. Hamilton/Slavin/Pesce/Fleury is IMO already a very solid top 4. Put Gardiner/Bean in the bottom pair using Gardiner on  PP2, is pretty solid really and fold in Edumundson and with injuries or vs certain teams.

 

I know it's tough to trade a guy for a draft pick, but the #15 pick in this draft is going to be a very good forward. And if, by some chance we land Askarov, we'd get a very nice forward prospect too. That could be a heck of a draft. Yes, it will take a couple of  years, but given how young this team is? Heck as those guys came in Bean would be solid and Fleury would be peak. And it would clear a ton of future cap....and we seem to be able to find serviceable UFA D men if we needed one later.

 

Am I talking myself into it?

 

That would in essence result in an upgrade from the 23rd pick to the 15th pick plus the use of Skjei for the last part of the season and the playoffs. You usually pay for acquiring late season help, not gain additional assets in exchange for that late season help, lol. Given that we presumably made the trade due to injuries at the time, I've got to believe that the Committee would look hard at such a trade if it were available. A lot could be dependent on the likelihood of being able to move Gardiner, which seems like it would be pretty slim.    

 

edit: might also depend on what happens with re-signing Fleury. If the negotiations hit a Lindholm like impasse I could see the Canes bailing on him, which would make make Skjei less expendable. 

Edited by LakeLivin

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50 minutes ago, Danimal38 said:

Whuuutt?  Really?  3 guys we were all excited about a year ago for a  #15 pick that has a small chance of ever making the NHL?   and than Brady Skeji too now?  So basically get rid of any new arrivals in the last season and a half? 

 

 

You feel this draft is so shallow that the #15 overall has a "small chance of ever making the NHL"?

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56 minutes ago, Danimal38 said:

Whuuutt?  Really?  3 guys we were all excited about a year ago for a  #15 pick that has a small chance of ever making the NHL?   and than Brady Skeji too now?  So basically get rid of any new arrivals in the last season and a half? 

Well Skjei would be solo. Yes, those guys were exciting upon arrival. But lately? 

 

Gardiner. Not sure what his trade value is, I'm thinking not a first rounder though.

Nino. How much longer do we wait for some sort of resurgence? Or some production in playoffs?

Dzingel. Rod has had him on the 4th line and riding the pine. Maybe he's coming around....

 

TBH I don't think Toronto would make that trade.

 

As to Skjei it's just that we have too much D and a lot of money tied up there and need to sign Dougy. It was really more of a question though than a recommendation. 

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1 hour ago, remkin said:

Here's a question. Would you do Brady Skjei for that #15 Toronto pick? As much as I'm not enamored with Gardiner, it would let us get Bean in there and maybe even keep Edmundson as an extra and room to sign Hamilton, which is, to me at the top of the list. Hamilton/Slavin/Pesce/Fleury is IMO already a very solid top 4. Put Gardiner/Bean in the bottom pair using Gardiner on  PP2, is pretty solid really and fold in Edumundson and with injuries or vs certain teams.

 

I know it's tough to trade a guy for a draft pick, but the #15 pick in this draft is going to be a very good forward. And if, by some chance we land Askarov, we'd get a very nice forward prospect too. That could be a heck of a draft. Yes, it will take a couple of  years, but given how young this team is? Heck as those guys came in Bean would be solid and Fleury would be peak. And it would clear a ton of future cap....and we seem to be able to find serviceable UFA D men if we needed one later.

 

Am I talking myself into it?

I dont see toronto  giving up  another 1st round pick  even if it meant  them getting something of  real value back  and they need cap space more so than we do . 

They will be  trying to replace  Kappanen  or get good right handed defenseman  which they desperately  need  . 

 

It is possible if at the draft they dont get the player they wanted  they could end up doing something  but  from what i  have seen  of leaf fans is  they want to clear up as much cap space as possible to try to sign someone in the off season .

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The Skjei acquisition only makes sense from 2 avenues

1. 1st rounders only have a 50% chance of playing 200 games in the NHL, that doesnt mention anything about playing 200 games as a top 4 defender.  

2. We are just buying insurance in case Dougie wants a lot more than we are wanting to spend.  He isnt Dougie but he is a smooth skater who provides some offense.  

 

In the end, a defender probably moves if Dougie is re-signed.  If Dougie doesnt re-sign, we have the opportunity to maximize the return via futures because we dont necessarily need a direct replacement. Dougie's re-sign ability really comes down to how much does he want.  He is a top 5 defender by analytics this season for 40 games.  The top 15 in defenders is a preference / bias thing so the list is murky.  So what is his ask?  We use Carlson as a our bench mark?  Meaning Dougie gets 8.25-8.5 mil AAV.  Does dougie use the big, mobile defenders as a bench mark? Karlsson, Doughty. etc?  8.25 to 11 million is a big gap.  I dont see us going above 9.  

 

That has to be priority number one for us. Then the rest of the off-season is determined from there.

Edited by gocanes0506

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17 minutes ago, Canesfanforever said:

I dont see toronto  giving up  another 1st round pick  even if it meant  them getting something of  real value back  and they need cap space more so than we do . 

They will be  trying to replace  Kappanen  or get good right handed defenseman  which they desperately  need  . 

 

It is possible if at the draft they dont get the player they wanted  they could end up doing something  but  from what i  have seen  of leaf fans is  they want to clear up as much cap space as possible to try to sign someone in the off season .

Yeah, probably true. Skjei surely doesn't create cap space. Just it was mentioned that Toronto put out there they'd trade that #15 pick, and we have more D than we need and a couple of underperforming forwards. Still not likely we match up for a trade. 

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27 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

The Skjei acquisition only makes sense from 2 avenues

1. 1st rounders only have a 50% chance of playing 200 games in the NHL, that doesnt mention anything about playing 200 games as a top 4 defender.  

2. We are just buying insurance in case Dougie wants a lot more than we are wanting to spend.  He isnt Dougie but he is a smooth skater who provides some offense.  

 

In the end, a defender probably moves if Dougie is re-signed.  If Dougie doesnt re-sign, we have the opportunity to maximize the return via futures because we dont necessarily need a direct replacement. Dougie's re-sign ability really comes down to how much does he want.  He is a top 5 defender by analytics this season for 40 games.  The top 15 in defenders is a preference / bias thing so the list is murky.  So what is his ask?  We use Carlson as a our bench mark?  Meaning Dougie gets 8.25-8.5 mil AAV.  Does dougie use the big, mobile defenders as a bench mark? Karlsson, Doughty. etc?  8.25 to 11 million is a big gap.  I dont see us going above 9.  

 

That has to be priority number one for us. Then the rest of the off-season is determined from there.

Yeah I like Skjei fine. We just keep picking up veteran D men and slow playing our draft pick D men. To that point Fleury's emergence makes us even fatter on D. We are better IMO finding a way to dump Gardiner. We had a few forwards who haven't produced much in playoffs and we have more D than we need. 

 

It is true that overall first rounders have 50-50 chance at playing, but on the other hand almost all good teams are built through the draft, and second rounders have a 25% chance. General consensus is that the #15 pick was too much for Kapanen, yet he's a near 20 goal, 42 point guy who still has upside. 

 

Anyways, that trade is pretty unlikely. But signing Dougy? That is a must. That is a special talent of near Norris level that perennial cup contenders have. Unless his ask is in crazy town, he needs to be signed. He is the D equivalent of Aho or Svech. As you mention, priority #1. Sign Dougy and the rest can be figured out. 

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3 minutes ago, remkin said:

Yeah I like Skjei fine. We just keep picking up veteran D men and slow playing our draft pick D men. To that point Fleury's emergence makes us even fatter on D. We are better IMO finding a way to dump Gardiner. We had a few forwards who haven't produced much in playoffs and we have more D than we need. 

 

It is true that overall first rounders have 50-50 chance at playing, but on the other hand almost all good teams are built through the draft, and second rounders have a 25% chance. General consensus is that the #15 pick was too much for Kapanen, yet he's a near 20 goal, 42 point guy who still has upside. 

 

Anyways, that trade is pretty unlikely. But signing Dougy? That is a must. That is a special talent of near Norris level that perennial cup contenders have. Unless his ask is in crazy town, he needs to be signed. He is the D equivalent of Aho or Svech. As you mention, priority #1. Sign Dougy and the rest can be figured out. 

Dougy is good.  It comes down to can we afford: Aho, Dougie, Staal, Svech, Necas, and the rest of the D? We will be handcuffed if Dougie wants top money. The Skjei and Gardiner acquisitions mean we arent necessarily forced to re-sign Dougie.  I hope we keep him and ship out Gardiner. No guarantee though.

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1 hour ago, gocanes0506 said:

The Skjei acquisition only makes sense from 2 avenues

1. 1st rounders only have a 50% chance of playing 200 games in the NHL, that doesnt mention anything about playing 200 games as a top 4 defender.  

2. We are just buying insurance in case Dougie wants a lot more than we are wanting to spend.  He isnt Dougie but he is a smooth skater who provides some offense.  

 

In the end, a defender probably moves if Dougie is re-signed.  If Dougie doesnt re-sign, we have the opportunity to maximize the return via futures because we dont necessarily need a direct replacement. Dougie's re-sign ability really comes down to how much does he want.  He is a top 5 defender by analytics this season for 40 games.  The top 15 in defenders is a preference / bias thing so the list is murky.  So what is his ask?  We use Carlson as a our bench mark?  Meaning Dougie gets 8.25-8.5 mil AAV.  Does dougie use the big, mobile defenders as a bench mark? Karlsson, Doughty. etc?  8.25 to 11 million is a big gap.  I dont see us going above 9.  

 

That has to be priority number one for us. Then the rest of the off-season is determined from there.

 

As part of a management-leadership program I went to a seminar based on principled negotiation as outlined in the book "Getting To Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In". One of the exercises was a role playing negotiation between an aging UFA European soccer star with a personal indiscretion he overcame and a team flirting with relegation. It was set up such that it was strongly in both parties interest to reach an agreement. 

 

I mention this because that's what the situation between the Canes and Dougie reminds me of. Gotta believe the Canes really want to retain Dougie, arguably one of the best all around d-men in the league. But after passing through 2 teams where he apparently didn't fit in, and finding a home with the Canes where just the opposite seems true, I've got to believe that Dougie also really wants to stay here rather than risking another team that may be a bad fit. Bottom line: it sure seems like they should be able to reach a deal if both parties negotiate in good faith.  

 

p.s. I highly recommend the book "Getting To Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In" to everyone, regardless of what you do. It's short, a very easy read, and the principles it teaches are practical and relate to everyday life. Probably more useful than almost all of the academic courses I've taken.  

Edited by LakeLivin
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34 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

Dougy is good.  It comes down to can we afford: Aho, Dougie, Staal, Svech, Necas, and the rest of the D? We will be handcuffed if Dougie wants top money. The Skjei and Gardiner acquisitions mean we arent necessarily forced to re-sign Dougie.  I hope we keep him and ship out Gardiner. No guarantee though.

Dougy is a Norris D and he's relatively young. This is why a guy like Skjei could be moved in favor of cheaper D men like Bean and hopefully Fleury. Move out salary for Nino too if possible. There are ways to adjust things to get the main guys signed.  But it's why you can't generally pay your #5 D man $5M/year. Move out Gardiner, Move out Skjei or Nino or whatever you need to, but sign Dougy. 

 

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9 minutes ago, remkin said:

Dougy is a Norris D and he's relatively young. This is why a guy like Skjei could be moved in favor of cheaper D men like Bean and hopefully Fleury. Move out salary for Nino too if possible. There are ways to adjust things to get the main guys signed.  But it's why you can't generally pay your #5 D man $5M/year. Move out Gardiner, Move out Skjei or Nino or whatever you need to, but sign Dougy. 

 

im not arguing Hamilton isnt good or that he isnt worth a bunch.  I want to keep him. What are we willing to spend?

 

Canes play hardball and arent going to want to pay him 9+ million.  Dougie is great. Dougie at 9 and Svech at 8.5 puts us a 46 million with 7 players (Aho, Turbo, Svech, Dougie, Slavin, Pesce, and Staal). That is 35 million for the rest of the roster with Necas up the next off-season.  Dougie may want more than 9 million.  You add one Skjei (lets say Gardiner gets traded), Foegele, and lets say Fleury, you are looking at another 10 million.  25 million for an entire 2nd line, entire 4th line, 2 defenders, and 2 goalies. 

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So in Corey Pronman's organizational depth chart, he has Washington last, and Pittsburgh second to last. Add to that no first rounders this year or next. 

 

It will be interesting to see how long those teams can keep things going with current rosters, because when it's done it's going to be a long road back.

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12 minutes ago, gocanes0506 said:

im not arguing Hamilton isnt good or that he isnt worth a bunch.  I want to keep him. What are we willing to spend?

 

Canes play hardball and arent going to want to pay him 9+ million.  Dougie is great. Dougie at 9 and Svech at 8.5 puts us a 46 million with 7 players (Aho, Turbo, Svech, Dougie, Slavin, Pesce, and Staal). That is 35 million for the rest of the roster with Necas up the next off-season.  Dougie may want more than 9 million.  You add one Skjei (lets say Gardiner gets traded), Foegele, and lets say Fleury, you are looking at another 10 million.  25 million for an entire 2nd line, entire 4th line, 2 defenders, and 2 goalies. 

At the moment there are only 2 D with cap hits above $9M and 7 with cap hits above $8M. There are guys getting more in this phase of their deals, but very few. 

 

Then there's the whole covid, flat cap thing. But if you get Dougy long term, $9M could be a bargain. I'm wondering if we get him in closer to $8M though. He's worth that and more IMO. 

 

I do hope we can nail down Fleury on a good deal. Then Bean is a cheap option. IMO as a general rule you can pay your stars if you're careful paying the low-middle guys. On D that's paying 4 Dmen tops, ideally 3. It's the guy making 4-5M and not producing that are the issue: Nino and Gardiner come to mind.

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I think the calculus management must make is whether we can win, or at minimum get to, the Cup Final with two relatively inexperienced (RI) blue liners. I don't think we can. In (my) perfect world we sign the RI Fleury, and find a way to keep Edmundson. We unload Gardiner for a bag of pucks, and we keep together what would arguably be the best top-four in hockey: Skjei, Hams, and Peas and Carrots, to make a serious run. We also keep one of TVR or Vatanen at or near their current salary as the 7th D, persuading them with long(er-than-typical-for-their-production)-term deals (three years?). Bean spends another year in CLT, and we re-sign McKeown as added 7th-man insurance. 

 

Up front, Nino and Dzingle need to find new rides and we need two less-fragile Ferlands in their places.

Edited by top-shelf-1
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My take: Hamilton provides a dimension that no other Canes defenseman (and very few other NHL defensemen) can. Given his past history and his fit with Carolina, I've gotta believe that Dougie very much wants to stay with the Canes. The Committee needs to sign him to a contract that works for both parties, period. 

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I'm reading a bit into Dougy's brain, but I think he'll take less that top value to stay here. We can't low ball him, but a fair negotiation should land him. This is a guy with tons of talent, but historically difficult time fitting into other organizations. He really seems to have found a natural fit for him here. We want him, the fans love him, his team seems to love him and he them. He could well bring us our first Norris before he's done. And he gets to play for Brind'Amour and be on a rising team. Seems like this should be able to happen.

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55 minutes ago, LakeLivin said:

My take: Hamilton provides a dimension that no other Canes defenseman (and very few other NHL defensemen) can. Given his past history and his fit with Carolina, I've gotta believe that Dougie very much wants to stay with the Canes. The Committee needs to sign him to a contract that works for both parties, period. 

From  all i have heard  is that Hamilton loves playing  for  carolina and actually likes the state quite a bit .      I dont know how much of that goes into  a hometown  discount kind of deal  and i  would not test it  as it could be taken as a sign of a insult .     What needs to happen is  long talks   about his importance to the team and  what the Hurricanes are trying to build here .    If both Parties  come to a rational decision  then   great !   but if not ?  Then what would be the canes  next step ?  

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3 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

 

As part of a management-leadership program I went to a seminar based on principled negotiation as outlined in the book "Getting To Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In". One of the exercises was a role playing negotiation between an aging UFA European soccer star with a personal indiscretion he overcame and a team flirting with relegation. It was set up such that it was strongly in both parties interest to reach an agreement. 

 

I mention this because that's what the situation between the Canes and Dougie reminds me of. Gotta believe the Canes really want to retain Dougie, arguably one of the best all around d-men in the league. But after passing through 2 teams where he apparently didn't fit in, and finding a home with the Canes where just the opposite seems true, I've got to believe that Dougie also really wants to stay here rather than risking another team that may be a bad fit. Bottom line: it sure seems like they should be able to reach a deal if both parties negotiate in good faith.  

 

p.s. I highly recommend the book "Getting To Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In" to everyone, regardless of what you do. It's short, a very easy read, and the principles it teaches are practical and relate to everyday life. Probably more useful than almost all of the academic courses I've taken.  

You are thinking exactly like I was Lake. I truly believe that Dougie found a HOME with us, and despite his "near Norris" status, I believe he'll want to stay? Of course we have to throw in his agent's push, but I'd almost believe a "home town discount" might be in there? I mean, why would he put himself in a background of controversy when he's so well accepted here?  

Edited by KJUNKANE
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4 hours ago, Canesfanforever said:

From  all i have heard  is that Hamilton loves playing  for  carolina and actually likes the state quite a bit .      I dont know how much of that goes into  a hometown  discount kind of deal  and i  would not test it  as it could be taken as a sign of a insult .     What needs to happen is  long talks   about his importance to the team and  what the Hurricanes are trying to build here .    If both Parties  come to a rational decision  then   great !   but if not ?  Then what would be the canes  next step ?  

 

If Dougie is looking to maximize his salary and won't budge the Canes will probably dump him. But I don't think that's likely to be the case. Part of a successful negotiation is to help the other party see why it's in their best interest to come to an agreement, and I'm placing the onus on The Committee to do just that with Hamilton. If they don't, I see it as a failure on their part.    

Edited by LakeLivin
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39 minutes ago, LakeLivin said:

 

 I'm placing the onus on The Committee to do just that with Hamilton. If they don't, I see it as a failure on their part.    

That's my thinking too. Negotiate, but do it in good faith and don't just try to go low ball. He is a critical piece IMO, and essentially not replaceable. When is the last time we had an offensive machine on the blueline that can also play defense and move the puck? Maybe Pitkanen was close, but not at Dougie's level, so... Never, is what the answer would be, and unless Jake Bean or Joey Keene dazzle it could be another 20 plus years to get one again. Given that he likely wants to be here and we are a cap team, this should happen. Most teams keep their star players if they are cap teams. We can have nice things. I'd put failure on the committee too. But hopefully it doesn't come to that. 

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7 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

My take: Hamilton provides a dimension that no other Canes defenseman (and very few other NHL defensemen) can. Given his past history and his fit with Carolina, I've gotta believe that Dougie very much wants to stay with the Canes. The Committee needs to sign him to a contract that works for both parties, period. 

Much truth to what you say.  This is a special period for hockey management around the league, balancing dollars spent on assets and protecting assets from being picked off in the expansion draft.  I am in total agreement that Hamilton seems to have found a home in Carolina, and when he looks at how he jells with his teammates and the community compared to his previous two stops, I think he wants to stay with the Canes.  But here's the thing;  I think the Canes can only protect 3 defensemen when the Krakens come to cherry pick.  What I want management to do is to protect Slavin, Pesce, and Fleury (after extending him this offseason).   Let Hamilton hit free agency with a deal worked out in order to retain him without protecting him.  That's what I want to see.  Go ahead impress me, Committee.

Edited by beboplar

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1 hour ago, beboplar said:

Much truth to what you say.  This is a special period for hockey management around the league, balancing dollars spent on assets and protecting assets from being picked off in the expansion draft.  I am in total agreement that Hamilton seems to have found a home in Carolina, and when he looks at how he jells with his teammates and the community compared to his previous two stops, I think he wants to stay with the Canes.  But here's the thing;  I think the Canes can only protect 3 defensemen when the Krakens come to cherry pick.  What I want management to do is to protect Slavin, Pesce, and Fleury (after extending him this offseason).   Let Hamilton hit free agency with a deal worked out in order to retain him without protecting him.  That's what I want to see.  Go ahead impress me, Committee.

Ron Francis  would eye ball Hamilton  with a tearful glee in  his  eye   if left unprotected .    Simply something the Canes can not risk .   Also  you have to think about  why it is important  to Extend Hamilton  now  instead of later .    The  Expansion draft comes after the 2022  playoffs .  Hamilton's contract ends in 2021 .     Extending   Hamilton now  means the canes can then focus on  other areas  that might need improving on  via  trade ,   ufa signings or  potential Draft selections . 

 

Also there is the manner of Extending Svechnikov   .     Those are the 2  key areas  the canes need to put all of their focus on .   Once they have accomplished that then they  can turn their attention to other areas  that need addressing . 

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  I just worry about giving Hamilton a really long term deal. Yes he had a great year. But has also had not so great to be let go from 2 other teams. I cant see a big raise with the flat cap. But would he, like a lot of players likely take a 1 or 2 year deal to make more when cap goes up? 

  Would it be great to keep him, yes. But also have to think of the other players coming up for resigning. I would rather have 3 or 4 good to really good players than 1 superstar and 3 4th liners

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Apologies in advance; this is longer than I like to go.

 

A long-term deal for Hamilton doesn't worry me if it's done right. Negotiations-wise he'll be at the perfect age for both parties: 28. He has paid his dues and will be looking for his payoff deal, and unless he absolutely falls off a cliff next season, he'll have earned it. On the other side of the table, this org has needed a genuine, two-way RHD star to anchor its D corps forever, and should be willing to pay him to be that guy, while the younger D work toward the same goal.

 

He's eligible for eight years. I would absolutely go 8 million per year for the first five and 7 the rest of the way: $61 million. But that's the easy part. The hard part is the NTC he will definitely want. If he wants it for the full term of the contract, I would offer $8.5 with NTC, but only for a five-year deal ($42.5 million). If he'll accept an NTC for the first five years of the eight-year deal, I'd do that too. But I think this org's market realities makes staying "married" to any player over age 33 unsustainable.

 

Even though I believe this particular player has the potential to positively impact the org for another 10 years, on the ice--through both his play and his mentoring of our young D--this is the first true payoff deal The Committee will negotiate. It should use the opportunity to lay down some limits that will be hard and fast for all players, and make not just every player but every employee in the org aware of them, from the very first day of their Canes' careers. I feel really strongly that if the org takes as systematic of an approach to the development of player (and employee) expectations as it does to player development, it can create a team-first culture that permeates every part of the org. 

 

Doing that is going to require a clear declaration that the org's market size requires it to apply some limits on the commitments it makes--limits that some other teams don't have to. But it must also make a commitment to every employee--players, coaches, front office staff, broadcasters (coughForslundcough)--that if they will work within those limits, they will make an increasingly good living, as the org grows, gradually, into a perennial winner.

 

Doing all of that is no small feat, but what's already happened with Lindholm and Hanifin and Forslund (and on the positive side, Pesce and Slavin and Aho and TT and the new practice facility and the scoreboard) suggests to me that TD is already on this road. Dougie's payoff deal is a great chance to take a further step down it, and if all goes well, Hamilton himself could become one of the examples which, eight or ten years hence, proves the process works.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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