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LakeLivin

Offseason Talk 2020

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1 hour ago, Canesfanforever said:

No ,  If bean  plays a fair amount this year  and has proven himself to be a  great  defenseman and  the offensive  defenseman  we had hoped  then  you keep the kid that proved himself over someone who is showing  signs of being injury prone .   If  not  then  keep pesce .


hmmm, Pesce hasn’t proven himself...

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I’m pretty sure Ron Francis is not interested in doing the Hurricanes a favor. All the cap implications of contracts for older players who have not been productive to the level of their salaries make me think we will struggle to sign Svech and Dougie to extensions. If we can get Dougie extended now, I wouldn’t wait until after the expansion draft to try and get tricky to keep him without having to protect him. That could result in a costly loss that was avoidable. If we lose Fleury or Bean, we still keep the other, plus Slavin, Pesce, hopefully Hamilton, Skjei and unless we ship him out, Gardiner. Defense is still an area of strength for us. I’m more concerned with getting Dougie and Svech signed while carrying Staal, Nino, Gardiner and Skjei on pretty big contracts relative to production than I am about whether we lose Fleury or Bean. We also don’t have a goalie under contract after next year, so in a flat cap world, we also have to find money to address that.

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2 minutes ago, spockrock said:


hmmm, Pesce hasn’t proven himself...

You are missing the  point .   If a  player on the team is  injury prone .   You would not be able to play that  player  anyways  when they get injured .  Bean  has yet  to have  a decent number of games under his belt  in the nhl ,   So  i really  dont understand why  it is such a bad  thing  to see if  bean is worthy  or not ?  And  it would only be for this year .     I like Brett  Pesce    but    Im also aware  that   he has become injured  quite often  for the Canes.   The Canes  sure could  of  used his talents this year in the playoffs   but  he was  still injured .    Bean was  a healthy Scratch in all  playoff games   this year .   Yet Bean  was   the AHL  Defense man of the year  award  winner .      Im  suggesting  that the canes  actually  play Bean the coming season and  get a good look  at how  he  contributes to the team   .  Scratch  Fleury for  some  or Gardiner  some or  Skjei  some games .   

If Bean  has proven himself  more Capable than Pesce   then where is the harm ? 

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12 minutes ago, bluedevilcane said:

I’m pretty sure Ron Francis is not interested in doing the Hurricanes a favor.

After the way he left here, you KNOW we’re gonna be #1 on his hit list.

19 minutes ago, spockrock said:


hmmm, Pesce hasn’t proven himself...

Say WHAT!?!?

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6 minutes ago, AWACSooner said:

After the way he left here, you KNOW we’re gonna be #1 on his hit list.

Say WHAT!?!?

 

I think spockrock meant the opposite of how you took it.

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49 minutes ago, LakeLivin said:

 

I think spockrock meant the opposite of how you took it.


Being able to infer sarcasm from text is difficult, but yes that was sarcastic. It was a response to the ridiculous notion that Pesce be left unprotected in terms of the expansion draft over an unproven player in Jake Bean. There are a great many nuances to consider when approaching how to best handle who Francis will end up with, but I will go ahead and make the prediction that Pesce then, as he does now, will have much more value than Jake Bean.

 

Don’t mistake me though, I am a Jake Bean fan. However, I also feel he’s never going to get a shot in Raleigh and the sooner they trade him for a comparable pick or prospect, the better.

 

Edited by spockrock
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40 minutes ago, spockrock said:

Don’t mistake me though, I am a Jake Bean fan. However, I also feel he’s never going to get a shot in Raleigh and the sooner they trade him for a comparable pick or prospect, the better.

I don't buy that he'll never get a shot, but I do agree it won't be next year, and IMO, it shouldn't be. He's not ready yet. If we can keep and develop him based on the organization's plan for doing so, great. If not, so be it.

 

The priority right now, with expansion looming, is to decide who constitutes our core at the NHL level, lock it down, and move out (or expose) the rest. If Bean is still in the org two years from now, maybe he becomes what Fleury is now, the #6 with a shot to move up. But we can't let anyone's potential three years from now cloud the current mission: To win as often as possible in the regular season and challenge as fully as possible in the post-season. That is how a winning culture becomes engrained and grows.

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23 hours ago, Canesfanforever said:

possibly  injury prone

Cff, I keep seeing you refer to this, but I question it's accuracy. To my recollection, Bret has had one and only one injury, that to his shoulder? Granted, in 2018, this shoulder kept him out 2 or 3 times, but he elected to not undergo surgery on it. This year, apparently the same shoulder acted up again, and he then elected to have it repaired surgically. Now granted shoulder injuries are very tricky, but to infer that he's "injury prone" is a bit disingenuous when you are proposing and arguing for Bean, a nice player for sure but no Pesce, as the heir apparent? Now, Bret also had an apparent concussion, but again I don't think I'd keep harping on him as "injury prone".

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20 hours ago, beboplar said:

Hamilton is a guy we fans like and want on the team

First, speak for yourself. I don't "like and want" him on the team, I believe signing both Svech and Hams is imperative, as strongly as you believe that signing only Svech is. By insisting we can't afford both, you are totally trying to change the subject, because you're ignoring my perfectly plausible case that in fact, we very likely can. It's clear you simply don't want to lose a favorite player. IMO that's clouding your judgment. Maybe looking at our actual options for expansion will help.

 

Under the rules, we can protect (option one) seven forwards, three D, and one keeper; or (option two) eight skaters regardless of position, and one keeper. These would be my choices under both:

 

Option one:

Seven forwards: Aho, TT, Svech, Necas, Trochek, Martinook, Staal (unless he'll waive), Foegele (if Staal waives).

Three defense: Pesce, Slavin, Hamilton.

Keeper: whomever

 

Option Two:

Eight skaters: Aho, TT, Svech, Necas, Staal (unless he'll waive), Trochek OR Nooky (if he will), Pesce, Slavin, Hamilton.

Keeper: whomever

 

This little exercise makes it super easy to see who constitutes this team's core, and doing it is helpful also because, leading up to expansion, it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that every player we don't protect will be lost, when in fact, we lose ONLY ONE.

 

In neither of the above lists do I protect Fleury--but neither do I protect Skjei. This, assuming Seattle (I will NEVER call them "the Kraken"!) takes one of our D, forces them to make a difficult choice. If they choose Fleury, so be it. But even then, we've achieved the goal in expansion: retaining our core. And we've gone it one better, by retaining four proven NHL D-men.

 

Further, the three we are guaranteed to keep are arguably among the top 15 in the entire league. If exposing Fleury and Skjei is what it takes to guarantee keeping one-fifth of the league's best D on this team, and coming through expansion with a bona-fide top-four no matter who we lose (assuming Fleury's growth continues next season), that's a ridiculously easy decision to me.

 

Edited by top-shelf-1
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47 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

First, speak for yourself. I don't "like and want" him on the team, I believe signing both Svech and Hams is imperative, as strongly as you believe that signing only Svech is. By insisting we can't afford both, you are totally trying to change the subject, because you're ignoring my perfectly plausible case that in fact, we very likely can. It's clear you simply don't want to lose a favorite player. IMO that's clouding your judgment. Maybe looking at our actual options for expansion will help.

 

Under the rules, we can protect (option one) seven forwards, three D, and one keeper; or (option two) eight skaters regardless of position, and one keeper. These would be my choices under both:

 

Option one:

Seven forwards: Aho, TT, Svech, Necas, Trochek, Martinook, Staal (unless he'll waive), Foegele (if Staal waives).

Three defense: Pesce, Slavin, Hamilton.

Keeper: whomever

 

Option Two:

Eight skaters: Aho, TT, Svech, Necas, Staal (unless he'll waive), Trochek OR Nooky (if he will), Pesce, Slavin, Hamilton.

Keeper: whomever

 

This little exercise makes it super easy to see who constitutes this team's core, and doing it is helpful also because, leading up to expansion, it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that every player we don't protect will be lost, when in fact, we lose ONLY ONE.

 

In neither of the above lists do I protect Fleury--but neither do I protect Skjei. This, assuming Seattle (I will NEVER call them "the Kraken"!) takes one of our D, forces them to make a difficult choice. If they choose Fleury, so be it. But even then, we've achieved the goal in expansion: retaining our core. And we've gone it one better, by retaining four proven NHL D-men.

 

Further, the three we are guaranteed to keep are arguably among the top 15 in the entire league. If exposing Fleury and Skjei is what it takes to guarantee keeping one-fifth of the league's best D on this team, and coming through expansion with a bona-fide top-four no matter who we lose (assuming Fleury's growth continues next season), that's a ridiculously easy decision to me.

 

 

Necas is exempt; good asset management by the Committee last season. 

Edited by LakeLivin
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47 minutes ago, LakeLivin said:

 

Necas is exempt; good asset management by the Committee last season. 

After reading all of that diatribe/literature/post you responded to, I was about to present the same Real News that you just did.  I never said they could NOT sign both Svechnikov and Hamilton.  I would like to know when I said that.  I have been talking about timing of signings.  The smart play is to get Svechnikov signed, get Fleury signed, protect Slavin/Pesce/Fleury, move some money out, work a delayed deal out with Hamilton, and reach for the stars.

 

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9 minutes ago, Canesfanforever said:

I will .  and love they are called that !    RELEASE THE KRAKEN !   RELEASE THE KARENS  ! lol 

 

Just pointing out that I wasn't the one who said I'd never call Seattle the Kraken. I guess that glitch with quoting a post containing quotes is still with us.

 

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The Canes will lose one player.  We will know who the core is when that happens.  Not really worth worrying about, imo.

 

On the political posting thing, members got a away with political posts in the Covid thread ad nauseam.  

 

Smirking Rod applying the full force of the law to a new member and running the guy off is pretty classless, also in my opinion.

 

Not to mention the condescending comment about running train on grown adults. 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, coastal_caniac said:

The Canes will lose one player.  We will know who the core is when that happens.  Not really worth worrying about, imo.

 

On the political posting thing, members got a away with political posts in the Covid thread ad nauseam.  

 

Smirking Rod applying the full force of the law to a new member and running the guy off is pretty classless, also in my opinion.

 

Not to mention the condescending comment about running train on grown adults.

 

 

You feel better after taking your shot?  
 

choo choo

 

managing politics inside the Covid thread has been difficult although this post was well above what others slip in there.  Appreciate the opinion though 

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The expansion draft is annoying, that's for sure. I can't argue with the guys we have to protect, but I'm very annoyed that we have to expose Fleury and Bean. 

 

I don't know how anyone who isn't watching Charlotte games regularly can definitively say Bean isn't ready. Just like Fleury before him, it is hard to project D men because they take time to develop. I was the among those who definitively didn't think he was ready when he looked overwhelmed up here, but that was over 2 seasons ago. Since they he was named the #1 D man in the AHL. There is not much more he can do until he sees NHL ice.

 

I would agree with the partial ice time of an up and down approach if he does not have to go on waivers. 

 

I'd really consider trying to pay Francis off, and if we can't trade those really good assets and force him to take who we want. 

 

I just really think that having a really solid bottom pair on good or entry deals is part of what allows us to pay Svech, Aho, and Hamilton.

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1 hour ago, remkin said:

I'd really consider trying to pay Francis off, and if we can't trade those really good assets and force him to take who we want.

That would be the best fix to a tricky situation, IF the circumstances were not what they are.  Ronnie was the face of both the Whalers almost from the day he was drafted, and then for a while the face of the Canes when he returned to the franchise.  He had a plan in mind for the Canes, one of polar opposite of JR's, when he took over as GM.  He exhibited tremendous patience and rebuilt the prospect pool and depth of the team.  For all he did, he was dismissed by a new owner who has differing ideas.  And TD has done an equally good job of continuing the rebuild.  Make no mistake, though, the pantry was not bare when Ronnie was let go.

How would you feel if you were Ronnie?  He got out of the business altogether for a short while, and now has been chosen to build a franchise.  He was always a class player, a quiet leader, an achiever, and most of all, a gentleman.  I recall the days he lead a wonderful Whalers team in 1986 to a nice run that just fell short.  

Ronnie will do whatever is in the Krakens best interest.  Making deals with the Canes will be a little different.  Human nature dictates he won't be looking to do the Canes any favors.  If Fleury is left unprotected, I will be shocked if he is not the pick.  Yeah, Bean is a good prospect, but Fleury will just be reaching his prime.

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18 hours ago, LakeLivin said:

 

Necas is exempt; good asset management by the Committee last season. 

even better, and thanks for the correction!

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Yeah, Ronnie picked Fleury too. He'd love to take him or Bean. If given the choice probably Fleury, especially if we lock him down to a really good deal.

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17 hours ago, beboplar said:

After reading all of that diatribe/literature/post you responded to, I was about to present the same Real News that you just did.  I never said they could NOT sign both Svechnikov and Hamilton.  I would like to know when I said that.  I have been talking about timing of signings.  The smart play is to get Svechnikov signed, get Fleury signed, protect Slavin/Pesce/Fleury, move some money out, work a delayed deal out with Hamilton, and reach for the stars.

 

Meh, it's "the smart play" because... you say so? Whatever.

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4 minutes ago, remkin said:

Yeah, Ronnie picked Fleury too. He'd love to take him or Bean. If given the choice probably Fleury, especially if we lock him down to a really good deal.

Exactly, which is why we should--and leave him exposed.

 

I see the kid's potential too, but I've been strung along on the potential of various players for too long. We now have players that can and want to win. So we should lock them down now--and win now.

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I know it seems pretty unrealistic, but trading Staal, then protecting D men is at least theoretically an option if he'd waive. This is just really me musing about crazy ideas. But perhaps an idea so crazy it just might work. No probably not. 

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12 minutes ago, top-shelf-1 said:

Exactly, which is why we should--and leave him exposed.

 

I see the kid's potential too, but I've been strung along on the potential of various players for too long. We now have players that can and want to win. So we should lock them down now--and win now.

It may end up being our only choice. Also, Joey Keane will probably be looking pretty good by the time we really need a guy. But...

 

I haven't actually tried to "capologist" the whole thing out but it just seems likely that signing Hamilton, Svech and having Aho signed might put the squeeze on payroll the way we're set up with so much cash on the blueline 1-5. I guess we can always go find a less expensive functional bottom pair guy, but I really like the idea of keeping the cost down on bottom pair D men. 

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32 minutes ago, beboplar said:

How would you feel if you were Ronnie? 

If I were Ronnie I'd feel like a guy who is all the wonderful things you say he was as a player and even an assistant GM, but who, as GM, was told by his new boss, in front of God, the world, and the public, to make deals to get the team into the playoffs that spring. The team had clawed all year to remain in contention, but instead of leveraging the new owner's energy (and cash) to go out and get the help they needed, he sat on his hands--and lost his job because of it.

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7 minutes ago, remkin said:

I know it seems pretty unrealistic, but trading Staal, then protecting D men is at least theoretically an option if he'd waive. This is just really me musing about crazy ideas. But perhaps an idea so crazy it just might work. No probably not. 

I agree. If Staal would waive I totally go the eight skaters route and protect four D including Fleury, and four forwards. I think there's a very real possibility of Staal waiving, or of accepting a pre-deal to go to the... uh, Seattle ice hockey team. There are worse ways to end one's career than being the first captain of a new club, and being close to the islands of western BC, a retirement haven for many Canadians.

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