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Dasher5227

Protest at UNC-CH stops speech by Tancredo

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Par for the course at a liberal learning institute. As a person from this state (NC) it is a tad embarressing. :(

I figured I'd let you guys get a go at this one before I take my shots.

http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/4954946/''>http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/4954946/' target="_blank">http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/4954946/[/post]

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I figured I'd let you guys get a go at this one before I take my shots.

http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/4954946/''>http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/4954946/' target="_blank">http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/4954946/[/post]

wow...this one may be opening up a can 'o worms...

my .02 worth?

The problem isn't "immigration", it IS illegal immigration!

I, as the descendant of Scottish jacobites, Welsh indentured servants , and (on 2 sides) Irish fleeing a famine (notice that these are all LEGAL immigrants?) have no problem with immigration, but I DO have a problem with the "illegal" aspect... even the language thing doesn't bother me that much - it took a generation for my Irish sides to switch from Gaelic - it's taking a generation for most hispanic's to learn english - no biggie there, I just wish the government (AKA school systems) would stop expecting my children to learn a pretty useless language in the modern era -100% of all the world's technological advancements, scientific discoveries, and business is conducted in 5 languages - English, German, Japanese, Chinese and French. (little known trivia here - prior to 1939, the primary foreign language taught in america was German)

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This is why I'm glad I picked Duke over UNC. I'm not knocking UNC as an academic institution, it's a fine school, but UNC is a LOT more liberal than Duke...and I don't mean liberal as a pejorative here, but this is nothing but HYPOCRISY at its finest. This group of protesters are the same group of people who join the ACLU and all the campus organizations preaching "tolerance," but then someone from the right comes to campus, they label him as a "hate-monger" and try to drown him out.

Tolerance? Yeah, right.

Folks, the reason we have immigration laws are because OUR SOCIAL SYSTEM CANNOT SUPPORT AN UNRESTRICTED FLOW OF IMMIGRANTS. It is that simple. Last time I checked, promoting obedience of the law is not "hate speech." These kids were smart enough to get into UNC, they should be able to work that out.

My mother is an immigrant who did it the right way, and every person that crosses the border illegally and takes advantage of our social system without paying taxes is an insult to her and everyone else who has immigrated legally over the years.

Bottom line: promoting better enforcement of immigration laws does not make you a xenophobe, racist, or bigot. It's time some of these "educated" idiots realize that.

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The violent actions of the protesters were inappropriate and quite frankly counterproductive, but that still doesn't make Tancredo right.

I just wish the students would have framed their responses in the same way that you are.

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BackCheck: I'm presume you were more interested in debating the freedom of speech aspect of this incident more than the coincidental topic of illegal immigration.

First off, I consider myself libertarian (for the less politically savvy, libertarianism is NOT the same thing as liberalism, look it up). Also, all we get from any media source is second hand information (short of unedited video), so I try to always keep that in mind. Here's my take:

Rule #1: Rights derive from property

You own your body, so you have the right to free speech, free thinking, to bear arms, etc. You own your land (well....), so you have the right to build a house on it and burn it down if you want to (so long as you don't try to claim insurance on it heh). You do not have rights simply because the Bill of Rights exists! The Bill of Rights simply recognizes your rights so that the government doesn't forget what they are! The point is simple and I'll repeat it: rights are derived from property. Whenever there is a question of someone's rights being violated, you simply have to ask, "who owns the property?"

Rule #2: Every right comes with a responsibility

You have a right to free speech, but you may not infringe upon someone else's right to free speech and you cannot harm anyone as a direct result of what you say (IE: yelling "fire" in a movie theater when there is no fire, and someone breaks their leg as a result: that is NOT free speech).

There's this fine line police have to walk when it comes to protecting the rights of the People. I do not envy their position in situations like these. There's the right of the students to protest and there's the right of Tancredo to say whatever he wishes to say. The police should have no regard for what anyone says unless someone's rights are being violated or threatened - only THEN should the police intervene.

On one hand, Tancredo has a right to free speech and should be allowed to say whatever he wants so long as he does not cause direct harm with his words. Based upon the article posted (and the video on WRAL), Tancredo did not violate anyone's rights. On the other hand, the protesters also have the right to free speech. The two women who held the huge banner up right in front of Tancredo were ejected because they impaired Tancredo's ability to speak freely. Not only did they infringe Tancredo's right to free speech, but Tancredo was invited whereas the two women were probably not invited, and even if they were, it was under the pretense that they wanted to hear him speak. I think the campus police were right to rid the classroom of these two women.

As for the broken window, I think the police made the right decision to disperse the crowd(s) and prevent any escalation of violence. I agree with Ref: a window was broken and that's enough reason to clear them out (it's not their property to break). Someone's right to free speech had just been impaired/infringed and then someone else's property had been destroyed, both infractions presumably coming from the same group of protesters. As for the pepper spray, it's impossible to know if it was abuse of force or if it was appropriate without seeing full unedited video or seeing it for yourself. A tazer warning shot? Pffft. No rights are violated there.

Bottom line: I think the protesters were overzealous and presumably just a SMIDGE hypocritical. Tancredo's rights were violated, that's a definite. The protesters' rights? Mmm... no evidence suggests that. Just remember this. Who was INVITED to be there by the university (the property owner) and who was NOT invited?

My girlfriend's father works for the university and she is going to grad school there this fall, but this incident doesn't embarrass me any and I doubt it will embarrass them much if any either: just as every fanbase has its bad apples... well... need I continue?

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People have come to this country illegally since the Europeans sailed over and took the land of the natives. Were all here illegally in my book, but hey what can you do? Pay taxes and I don't care where your from or how you got here.

If you want to protest against something then you have the right to do so. If someone pushes you, push back I say, fight for what you believe in otherwise you will get ran over your whole life.

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Ever notice how it's the liberals that can't keep control of themselves or protest in an orderly manner? This escapade was reminiscent Columbia University's attack on the Minutemen. Embaressment to my alma mater.

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I'm not surprised at the responses. I just know that this thread is going to get locked soon.

Why aren't we disgusted every time a police uses violence against a citizen in this manner? Why are we shocked and appalled because the protesters broke a window (nobody gets hurt), but it's OK when police use violence against citizens? It's what Thoreau (my favorite American libertarian) called "A common and natural result of an undue respect for the law." Their violence is sanctioned by the law, so they must be right. But the law isn't absolute. Law isn't morality. Laws change. And immigration laws need to change, along with America's entire foreign policy stance. It's no coincidence that immigration from Central America spiked at around the time NAFTA was passed, as small farmers were pushed off their land, into cities already too crowded to accommodate them, and ultimately, across the border into the US. Being "tough" on immigration and/or locking people up won't change a thing, and neither will standing by and saying, "well, it's the law, whaddyagonnado?"

This isn't a free speech issue. If a governmental body said, "Tom Tancredo can't give speeches," then it would be. But it's disingenuous to paint these protesters as opponents of free speech because they used their speech to drown out Tancredo's, who, as a former Congressman, can speak at just about any venue he wants. These protesters used their free speech to send a powerful message to people like Tancredo: we don't care to hear your message of veiled intolerance.

That guy in the video who compared the broken window to Kristallnacht? Is he serious? And the Warsaw Uprising was the moral equivalent of the Blitzkrieg. "The Nazis had pieces of flare they made the Jews wear." God bless these people!

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Ever notice how it's the liberals that can't keep control of themselves or protest in an orderly manner? This escapade was reminiscent Columbia University's attack on the Minutemen. Embaressment to my alma mater.

The conservatives have the same problems with individuals who do stupid things that make them look bad. Just because a liberal does something doesn't mean all liberals endorse what the individual did. You can't legitimately paint either group with the extremes that lie on the edges because after all for every Bill Ayers on the left there is a Timothy McVay on the right. (I realize that those two aren't nearly equivalent but that is the best I can do off the top of my head. The basic point is there are people who have done or advocated terrible things in either group.)

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The conservatives have the same problems with individuals who do stupid things that make them look bad. Just because a liberal does something doesn't mean all liberals endorse what the individual did. You can't legitimately paint either group with the extremes that lie on the edges because after all for every Bill Ayers on the left there is a Timothy McVay on the right. (I realize that those two aren't nearly equivalent but that is the best I can do off the top of my head. The basic point is there are people who have done or advocated terrible things in either group.)

I would agree, but my comment was specifically based around public protests.

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Anarchists aren't liberals (not to say the window-breaker was an anarchist, but they are usually either anarchists or agent provacateurs). The liberals are the ones singing songs, holding signs, and generally making sure that they are completely ineffective at getting their point across. Anarchists are the ones who break things and are completely ineffective at getting their point across. :lol:

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The conservatives have the same problems with individuals who do stupid things that make them look bad. Just because a liberal does something doesn't mean all liberals endorse what the individual did. You can't legitimately paint either group with the extremes that lie on the edges because after all for every Bill Ayers on the left there is a Timothy McVay on the right. (I realize that those two aren't nearly equivalent but that is the best I can do off the top of my head. The basic point is there are people who have done or advocated terrible things in either group.)

Exactly, Both parties have their extremists and folks who just take it a little too far..

Although, the truth is Liberals have a record of protests like this, where if they don't like someone's views they will do whatever they can to interrupt that certain someone..

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Completely agree with the person who called this event hypocritical...UNC students need to make up their minds on what they want. This wouldn't have happened at State, although immigration could be a touchy topic at a conservative university. Still though, we sure as hell wouldn't have invited someone and then not let them speak.

:rolleyes:

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Ever notice how it's the liberals that can't keep control of themselves or protest in an orderly manner? This escapade was reminiscent Columbia University's attack on the Minutemen. Embaressment to my alma mater.

You prefer conservatives who act like children, stomp their feet, and throw tea bags because they lost the election? Tell that sort of "protesting" to Texas Governor Rick Perry who keeps dancing around the topic of secession. Compared to the that this looks like kindergarten slap fest.

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Completely agree with the person who called this event hypocritical...UNC students need to make up their minds on what they want. This wouldn't have happened at State, although immigration could be a touchy topic at a conservative university. Still though, we sure as hell wouldn't have invited someone and then not let them speak.

:rolleyes:

I doubt any major state university in this country could have a student group invite Tancredo, or any other divisive figure, and not have another student group protest. You're going to find 100+ people on either side of an issue when you got 10,000-30,000+ people.

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You prefer conservatives who act like children, stomp their feet, and throw tea bags because they lost the election? Tell that sort of "protesting" to Texas Governor Rick Perry who keeps dancing around the topic of secession. Compared to the that this looks like kindergarten slap fest.

Wait, wait, wait.. Too much CNN? They have clearly shown their Bias *edit* that day.. First it wasn't Only Conservatives just to make that clear.. Liberals, Conservatives and Independents where there protesting against the Government and it's out controlled spending..

You prefer Liberals interrupting a guest speaker?

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Wait, wait, wait.. Too much CNN? They have clearly shown their Bias *edit* that day.. First it wasn't Only Conservatives just to make that clear.. Liberals, Conservatives and Independents where there protesting against the Government and it's out controlled spending..

You prefer Liberals interrupting a guest speaker?

Ho hum. Actually I believe if you're referring to media bias, the correct response would be 'MSNBC liberal journalism', not so much for CNN.

Too much Fox News for you at the same token? Please inform me. The very same conservatives who praised Paulson's TARP bailout, excluding a few. They were cheerleaders for the Bush administration which ultimately led us into this mess, but when the milk spills you cry foul with knee jerk socialism rants.

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Ho hum. Actually I believe if you're referring to media bias, the correct response would be 'MSNBC liberal journalism', not so much for CNN.

Too much Fox News for you at the same token? Please inform me. The very same conservatives who praised Paulson's TARP bailout, excluding a few. They were cheerleaders for the Bush administration which ultimately led us into this mess, but when the milk spills you cry foul with knee jerk socialism rants.

Nope, CNN itself no Olberman this time.. Luckily..

target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd2tg8gxCDU...player_embedded[/post]

Nope, I lost all faith in the Media, seeing how both sides push there own agendas...

Less Blaming the Bush admin, and more Blaming your own high and mighty Nancy Pelosi who is just and utter joke to America..

EDIT: Liberals protested for the past 8 years and got violent yet there are ZERO stories of arrests or damage from our protest. That's because we're grownups and not little children throwing a temper tantrum. We also organized without the likes of a George Soros's and his millions, nor did we have to hire actors to "pretend".

In 2010 your party will be thrashed because even the Independents have come out of the ether and realize what they did and the horrible consequences of it to their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness and there isn't a damn thing you or "The One" can do about it. You can produce "reports" that call us "terrorists", being pro-gun, anti-abortion, anti-illegal, pro-10th Amendment supporters, etc...but it so don't mean squat...

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Nope, CNN itself no Olberman this time.. Luckily..
target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd2tg8gxCDU...player_embedded[/post]

Nope, I lost all faith in the Media, seeing how both sides push there own agendas...

Less Blaming the Bush admin, and more Blaming your own high and mighty Nancy Pelosi who is just and utter joke to America..

EDIT: Liberals protested for the past 8 years and got violent yet there are ZERO stories of arrests or damage from our protest. That's because we're grownups and not little children throwing a temper tantrum. We also organized without the likes of a George Soros's and his millions, nor did we have to hire actors to "pretend".

In 2010 your party will be thrashed because even the Independents have come out of the ether and realize what they did and the horrible consequences of it to their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness and there isn't a damn thing you or "The One" can do about it. You can produce "reports" that call us "terrorists", being pro-gun, anti-abortion, anti-illegal, pro-10th Amendment supporters, etc...but it so don't mean squat...

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

"Liberals protested for the past 8 years and got violent yet there are ZERO stories of arrests or damage from our protest."

Kind of hard to do that against a system that wiretaps their own citizens without warrant, as well as detaining people for years on end without being charged with a crime, trampling over Habeas Corpus. The fact is people, like you, put yourselves in the position your in. Especially when the GOP movement is at lowest approval records in history.

In 2010 your party will be thrashed because even the Independents have come out of the ether and realize what they did and the horrible consequences of it to their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness and there isn't a damn thing you or "The One" can do about it. You can produce "reports" that call us "terrorists", being pro-gun, anti-abortion, anti-illegal, pro-10th Amendment supporters, etc...but it so don't mean squat...

You're in no position to be speaking about "thrashed" when a majority of the country voted like minded individuals, like you, out of office because of the disaster you caused. I do find it amazing you speak of "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" when like minded individuals never lived up to those standards themselves.

You can produce "reports" that call us "terrorists"

Correct me if I am wrong, but the last time you branded a certain people as "terrorists" were supposed to have weapons of mass destruction. Yes?

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Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

"Liberals protested for the past 8 years and got violent yet there are ZERO stories of arrests or damage from our protest."

Kind of hard to do that against a system that wiretaps their own citizens without warrant, as well as detaining people for years on end without being charged with a crime, trampling over Habeas Corpus. The fact is people, like you, put yourselves in the position your in. Especially when the GOP movement is at lowest approval records in history.

In 2010 your party will be thrashed because even the Independents have come out of the ether and realize what they did and the horrible consequences of it to their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness and there isn't a damn thing you or "The One" can do about it. You can produce "reports" that call us "terrorists", being pro-gun, anti-abortion, anti-illegal, pro-10th Amendment supporters, etc...but it so don't mean squat...

You're in no position to be speaking about "thrashed" when a majority of the country voted like minded individuals, like you, out of office because of the disaster you caused. I do find it amazing you speak of "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" when like minded individuals never lived up to those standards themselves.

You can produce "reports" that call us "terrorists"

Correct me if I am wrong, but the last time you branded a certain people as "terrorists" were supposed to have weapons of mass destruction. Yes?

Have you even watched the Video?

Did i ever say that was a good thing? If that's what it takes to find terrorists in our own country then im willing to let that happen.. I'm not going to let another 9/11.. But there is a limit..

Did you realize the Democratic Congress has lower approval rating than Bush? How sad..

I caused? Look at the last 2 years when Nancy pelosi took over Congress!

It's kinda hard to get to that point when people like you vote for more Government when right now, it's crazy than ever before.. Obama is a Puppet, he's doing what Bush and his phonies did.. and now Liberals seem to think it's fine..

EDIT:Oh boy, look at big brother now.. Mr Obama's administration spies more than Mr Bush's administration..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30238492/''>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30238492/' target="_blank">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30238492/[/post]

EDIT2: You also realize it took Bush 8 years to do what Obama did in 3 months?

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Have you even watched the Video?

Did i ever say that was a good thing? If that's what it takes to find terrorists in our own country then im willing to let that happen.. I'm not going to let another 9/11..

Did you realize the Democratic Congress has lower approval rating than Bush? How sad..

I caused? Look at the last 2 years when Nancy pelosi took over Congress!

It's kinda hard to get to that point when people like you vote for more Government when right now, it's crazy than ever before.. Obama is a Puppet, he's doing what Bush and his phonies did.. and now Liberals seem to think it's fine..

No, I did not watch your video and have no intention to do so. You and I simply will never agree on political issues, regardless of what your video has to offer. I see that coming. As of now, I am bowing out of this conversation. DatsyukProspect I will read your comments for anything Hurricanes hockey related and I will support them..but as for this topic..I'm done.

My apologies to the mods raising my Stalinistic-Khrushchev eyebrows.

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No, I did not watch your video and have no intention to do so. You and I simply will never agree on political issues, regardless of what your video has to offer. I see that coming. As of now, I am bowing out of this conversation. DatsyukProspect I will read your comments for anything Hurricanes hockey related and I will support them..but as for this topic..I'm done.

My apologies to the mods raising my Stalinistic-Khrushchev eyebrows.

I guess you can't stand seeing your own side being Biased at its best?

Oh well, we all know.. Anyways, i think we both said our points and how we look at things and I guess we have to Agree to Disagree unfortunately..

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