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FNG Report Card: Part Deux

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Mojo, you may have to explain the new comers(or returnees) who the FNG guys are. You should copy your initial assessment too. As far as the discussion goes, its nice to see people can agree to disagree without the spitting war.

My report card from the other board....

The FNG report card is all good (or if you'd like, Staaaal good)! The FNG's have fit in well and surpassed my expectations. I knew getting Walker was huge, but not this huge . I wonder if Gleason and Belanger are just as happy to be here? LA has had a dismal start and doesn't seem to be coming out of it any time soon. Tough break for Trevor but everyone will be rooting for him when he returns.

Tanabe....well....umm....what Mojo said .

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Mojo, you may have to explain the new comers(or returnees) who the FNG guys are. You should copy your initial assessment too. As far as the discussion goes, its nice to see people can agree to disagree without the spitting war.

My report card from the other board....

The FNG report card is all good (or if you'd like, Staaaal good)! The FNG's have fit in well and surpassed my expectations. I knew getting Walker was huge, but not this huge . I wonder if Gleason and Belanger are just as happy to be here? LA has had a dismal start and doesn't seem to be coming out of it any time soon. Tough break for Trevor but everyone will be rooting for him when he returns.

Tanabe....well....umm....what Mojo said .

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Thanks to whoever pointed out that the icetime and the line matchups matter more...

And statistics DO lie. They should never be the measure of a player. My favorite Mark Twain quote, which you have been subjected to in the past and shall be again, points that out: There are three kinds of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Statistics can be made to say whatever you want them to say, whether in sports, marketing, or politics.

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Mojo, you may have to explain the new comers(or returnees) who the FNG guys are. You should copy your initial assessment too. As far as the discussion goes, its nice to see people can agree to disagree without the spitting war.

My report card from the other board....

The FNG report card is all good (or if you'd like, Staaaal good)! The FNG's have fit in well and surpassed my expectations. I knew getting Walker was huge, but not this huge . I wonder if Gleason and Belanger are just as happy to be here? LA has had a dismal start and doesn't seem to be coming out of it any time soon. Tough break for Trevor but everyone will be rooting for him when he returns.

Tanabe....well....umm....what Mojo said .

Good point. So here's the original post copied from the other board.

FNG Report Card

« Thread Started on Oct 30, 2006, 11:08pm »

With a month of the season down, seems like a good time to take stock of the trades and acquisitions Lumpy made before the season started.

My 2% of a buck:

Scott Walker: This trade makes JR look every inch the genius. Walker has snapped right into the spot vacated by Matt Cullen and turned into one of our most productive forwards throught the first month. And he does it without being a defensive liability. Good nose for the net, great hands and vision. And he seems to be able to contribute regardless of the linemates he's given. He's exactly the right kind of player for this team and this system.

Tim Gleason: Another guy who fits right into the system. A gritty checker with a heavy shot who makes losing Aaron Ward a lot less painful. And he has the upside of having a lot of years in front of him if he stays healthy. Gleason's a guy who'll hit clean, hit hard and hit without checking out the number on the target jersey first. He's racking up some pretty significant ice time, which says to me that he's got the coaches' blessing too. He'd have been a bargain at twice the price when you consider who we traded for him.

Eric Belanger: And in that same bargain comes yet another winner. Belanger is the prototypical third line center. Always in the mix, and always in the middle of the play. And solid enough that he could move up to one of the top two lines if we needed him to. He'll be a major asset going forward (no pun intended). He's got a Dino Ciccarelli/Mike Ricci type style that plants him in front of the net which I'd like to see used a little more on the PP. Better not give up too many rebounds with this guy on the ice, or he's gonna burn ya.

Trevor Letowski: I can't help thinking "What if?". It's hardly fair to make an evaluation on a guy who's missed half the season so far because of an unfortunate hit, but he seemed to be finding his rhythm before he got the El-Kabong against the Pens. Not on the scoresheet necessarily, but at that time, nobody was really getting on the scoresheet much. So while the jury's still pretty much out, I've liked what I've seen. But once he's back, how much ice time will he see given Lavi's tendency to dress seven "D"? and when we get Stiller back, that'll further complicate matters. I guess that's a problem coaches love to have, eh?

David Tanabe: Back on the IR again, which was pretty much the story of his last tour of duty with the Canes. Tanabe was -- I'm guessing -- mainly brought on to fill out an inury depleted defense by not overworking the guys who were still healthy. In that capacity he's done a good -- though not distinguished -- job. JR raised a lot of eyebrows among the faithful with this move and it seems like the consensus is that as long as Tanabe's doing no harm, he's doing what we need. I'm not sure that shooting for a zero-sum is a good formula for success, but with the current injury situation it's pretty much moot anyway.

So what say the rest of our esteemed brethren?

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Koivu probably would have put them over the top; we lucked out. All they needed was a couple more goals and it'd have been over. Really just one considering we'd have been as good as dead if we had lost the 3rd game in OT (Fortunately staal got a timely one). If we had lost brindy in the first period of the Finals we might not have won that game or another. He started the comeback and led the way at clutch times throughout the playoffs. That's what franchise guys do--if you consider Brindy a franchise guy (I do).

AO and crosby are already franchise players. They already dominate. They're just going to become better, more complete franchise players with time. Franchise players make guys around them look good with padded stats. That said no matter what they have to have someone to pass them the puck. I think we agree on this point.

Staal is another good example. He may not be the best defensive guy but where would we be without his 128 points last year, regular and post season?

Blue chip prospect means a high probability of impact in the NHL. Guys like Tanabe are exceptions, not the rule. He also wasn't taken 2nd.

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Koivu probably would have put them over the top; we lucked out. All they needed was a couple more goals and it'd have been over. Really just one considering we'd have been as good as dead if we had lost the 3rd game in OT (Fortunately staal got a timely one). If we had lost brindy in the first period of the Finals we might not have won that game or another. He started the comeback and led the way at clutch times throughout the playoffs. That's what franchise guys do--if you consider Brindy a franchise guy (I do).

AO and crosby are already franchise players. They already dominate. They're just going to become better, more complete franchise players with time. Franchise players make guys around them look good with padded stats. That said no matter what they have to have someone to pass them the puck. I think we agree on this point.

Staal is another good example. He may not be the best defensive guy but where would we be without his 128 points last year, regular and post season?

Blue chip prospect means a high probability of impact in the NHL. Guys like Tanabe are exceptions, not the rule. He also wasn't taken 2nd.

We agree on a lot of points actually. To enumerate some:

We both consider Brindy to be a franchise player. But he wasn't always a franchise player. In Philadelphia he was a solid two-way second- or third-line center who was overshadowed by Lindros (grrr) and LeClair.

We both see AO and Crosby as "immediate impact" players. Those rare guys who are kicking butts and taking names from day one.

Koivu... he'd been pretty much a non-factor in the series against us before he got hurt. His major contribution -- and I'm not trying to minimize it at all -- was his leadership, and the Habs still had that commodity even though he wasn't dressed. It was the same as when he was sick -- he was still an inspirational leader. But outside of that he was good for 2 assists in Game 1 and was pretty quiet after that. But who can say? If he hadn't gotten hurt maybe it's a different series. If Buffalo hadn't been down to the Little Sisters of the Poor on their blueline, maybe they're playing for the Cup instead of us. But it didn't happen that way, and we won the prize.

What I'm getting from what you're saying is that the trade was a bad trade because we gave up Jack Johnson, but in every other way it made sense. We dumped a $2.5M bench warmer and got two quality guys in return. Guys who're young enough that they're gonna be around for a while and guys that have snapped right into the vacancies left behind by two departures from last year.

So your whole argument is predicated on the belief that Johnson is the kind of impact player that AO or Crosby is, and that's why we made a bad trade. I gotta say you obviously have more faith in Mr. Johnson than I do -- which is fine, the Gretzky-Lemieux debate will never be settled. But if you're a GM, not making this trade is climbing out on a very long, very shaky limb even if Jack Johnson is the second coming of Paul Coffey.

But we'll never really know until (and unless) JJ actually signs with somebody what might've been. For now, I'll stand by my initial assesment of the trade. It looked smart to me at the time, and it's looking better every game.

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Statistics can be made to say whatever you want them to say, whether in sports, marketing, or politics.

Amen! Personally I cannot say enough about the FNG's (longtime since I used that one). My mind actually starts to race thinking of the PP once Stiller and Frank come back.

Imagine Walker, Cole, Staal, Stillman, Kaberle and Babs.. Wholly Schiznazz!!

Than roll in Whitney, Letowski, Bells, Commy and Hutch!!

Hell any comob of the above!

Oh December is going to be special!

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Statistics can be made to say whatever you want them to say, whether in sports, marketing, or politics.

Amen! Personally I cannot say enough about the FNG's (longtime since I used that one). My mind actually starts to race thinking of the PP once Stiller and Frank come back.

Imagine Walker, Cole, Staal, Stillman, Kaberle and Babs.. Wholly Schiznazz!!

Than roll in Whitney, Letowski, Bells, Commy and Hutch!!

Hell any comob of the above!

Oh December is going to be special!

Don't forget Brindy and Willie and the Adams family! And Chad Larose is so due for a goal... I thought he had a couple tonight, but t hey just didn't fall.

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Koivu... he'd been pretty much a non-factor in the series against us before he got hurt. His major contribution -- and I'm not trying to minimize it at all -- was his leadership, and the Habs still had that commodity even though he wasn't dressed. It was the same as when he was sick -- he was still an inspirational leader. But outside of that he was good for 2 assists in Game 1 and was pretty quiet after that.

You need to re-examine your facts. Koivu set up the overtime winning in game 2. I think that's evidence enough to make him a significant part of the team. I'm not here to argue over who would've/could've won last year, all I'm saying is that the loss of Koivu was the turning point of the series. The fact that you say his presence was invisible makes me question whether or not you even watched those first two games.

What I'm getting from what you're saying is that the trade was a bad trade because we gave up Jack Johnson, but in every other way it made sense. We dumped a $2.5M bench warmer and got two quality guys in return. Guys who're young enough that they're gonna be around for a while and guys that have snapped right into the vacancies left behind by two departures from last year.

So your whole argument is predicated on the belief that Johnson is the kind of impact player that AO or Crosby is, and that's why we made a bad trade. I gotta say you obviously have more faith in Mr. Johnson than I do -- which is fine, the Gretzky-Lemieux debate will never be settled. But if you're a GM, not making this trade is climbing out on a very long, very shaky limb even if Jack Johnson is the second coming of Paul Coffey.

There seems to be a couple of arguments you're bouncing around with here and I'll try my best to address each one.

1) Franchise players in the NHL are less dominant then in other leagues:

That's a hard argument to make....football is continuously sold as being one of the most TEAM based games out there. If one player fails to perform his role the whole line can fall apart. Even the best quarterback in the world would have crappy stats if his offensive line stunt.

*Name me one team to win the Stanley Cup who didn't have an amazing goalie?

*The Penguins were already scheduled to move to Hamilton, Ontario after the 84-85 season. However Lemieux single handedly made the team competitive again and brought enough fans back into the stands convincing Management to stay in Pittsburgh.

*Read up on the Richard riots.

*Bobby Orr was consider a player playing in a league of his own.

--------------------------------------------------

2) Definition of a bluechip player:

Crosby and Ovechkin are not your average bluechip players, they're simply the epitomy of one. No one is saying Johnson is a Crosby or Ovechkin, but they don't have to be one in order to be a bluechip.

AO is still correct. I don't think either of us at any point have tried to imply that the Canes got ripped off for the situation they were in. But when you look strictly at the potential calibur of the players you got screwed.

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that is what i thought and what it was when i was in the Navy 30 years ago but didn't know if you youngsters used it the same way.

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Until JJ signs I say we got the better end of the deal. We got two great players who are playing now. LA got one overpaid benchwarmer, and a prospect who may or may not sign with them.

Is JJ going to be best, no one knows until he decides to play real hockey. He is not growing playing in college. We all know he is the best college player, but its completly different in the NHL, hell even the AHL. Even Bayda admitted that the AHL is completly different than the NHL. Who knows if JJ can keep up his potential once he starts playing with the big boys.

So for my 2 cents worth, JR did what he had to do and I'm very satisfied with our FNGs.

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I'd like him to find us another FNG defenseman right now.

Think about it though, in order for him to get us a good defenseman, he would probably have to trade a top player to make it work within his budget. Do you want to give up a Williams, Cole, type player for a defenseman. I honestly do not. Our defenseman are not doing bad. The only worthless one is DT. Yeah the others are banged up, but their healing. We need Gleason back in the line up and I hear it may be Saturday.

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I'd like him to find us another FNG defenseman right now.

Think about it though, in order for him to get us a good defenseman, he would probably have to trade a top player to make it work within his budget. Do you want to give up a Williams, Cole, type player for a defenseman. I honestly do not. Our defenseman are not doing bad. The only worthless one is DT. Yeah the others are banged up, but their healing. We need Gleason back in the line up and I hear it may be Saturday.

You are the voice of reason and I am too combative today! Must sign off for a while to regroup.... first I jumped to Wesley's defense, then I start trading player away and I'm attacking our own fan base. Takes too much energy to be this argumentative:shock:. Sitting in all that traffic last night did me no good at all :|

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I'd like him to find us another FNG defenseman right now.

Think about it though, in order for him to get us a good defenseman, he would probably have to trade a top player to make it work within his budget. Do you want to give up a Williams, Cole, type player for a defenseman. I honestly do not. Our defenseman are not doing bad. The only worthless one is DT. Yeah the others are banged up, but their healing. We need Gleason back in the line up and I hear it may be Saturday.

You are the voice of reason and I am too combative today! Must sign off for a while to regroup.... first I jumped to Wesley's defense, then I start trading player away and I'm attacking our own fan base. Takes too much energy to be this argumentative:shock:. Sitting in all that traffic last night did me no good at all :|

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that is what i thought and what it was when i was in the Navy 30 years ago but didn't know if you youngsters used it the same way.

Youngster, huh? Thank you much C97. Been a long while since anybody referred to me as a youngster.

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You need to re-examine your facts. Koivu set up the overtime winning in game 2. I think that's evidence enough to make him a significant part of the team. I'm not here to argue over who would've/could've won last year, all I'm saying is that the loss of Koivu was the turning point of the series. The fact that you say his presence was invisible makes me question whether or not you even watched those first two games.

Actually I was at both of those games, and frankly the only invisible presence for all of Game 1 and a good bit of Game 2 was the Canes. But I stand corrected on Koivu's second assist. All I'm syaing is that out of 12 goals the Habs scored in those two games, he factored in on two -- though one of them was a pretty important one. But I'll stand by the assertion that the series didn't hinge on him getting hurt. Montreal hardly went away after his injury -- Carolina just found a way to beat them.

There seems to be a couple of arguments you're bouncing around with here and I'll try my best to address each one.

1) Franchise players in the NHL are less dominant then in other leagues:

That's a hard argument to make....football is continuously sold as being one of the most TEAM based games out there. If one player fails to perform his role the whole line can fall apart. Even the best quarterback in the world would have crappy stats if his offensive line stunt.

*Name me one team to win the Stanley Cup who didn't have an amazing goalie?

The 97-98 Red Wings. Osgood is solid, but hardly qualifies as "amazing" when stacked up with Roy or Brodeur.

*The Penguins were already scheduled to move to Hamilton, Ontario after the 84-85 season. However Lemieux single handedly made the team competitive again and brought enough fans back into the stands convincing Management to stay in Pittsburgh.

And how often does a Mario Lemieux come along? My argument is not that franchise players don't exist, just that for every Lemieux to come along there are 28 or 29 other first-round picks. And how many of them become franchise players?

*Read up on the Richard riots.

*Bobby Orr was consider a player playing in a league of his own.

He was. It was called the WHA and it was contracts like his that sent that league into the great beyond. To be joined later by the WFL and USFL for the same kinds of reasons.

2) Definition of a bluechip player:

Crosby and Ovechkin are not your average bluechip players, they're simply the epitomy of one. No one is saying Johnson is a Crosby or Ovechkin, but they don't have to be one in order to be a bluechip.

AO is still correct. I don't think either of us at any point have tried to imply that the Canes got ripped off for the situation they were in. But when you look strictly at the potential calibur of the players you got screwed.

I think saying that the Canes were "forcibly fornicated with" (so as not to offend whoever objected to his choice of words earlier) says pretty strongly that one of you thinks we got ripped off. ;)

And maybe in the long run that will prove to be the case. But when I look at the two players we got for the one player we didn't get (you can't really say "lost" because we never had him to begin with) I still think we won in the deal. You don't, AO doesn't and that's okay. But a team cannot remain both static and successful. And doing nothing to address the voids left in the roster by free-agency would have been a far worse move than making this deal. In a perfect world, we'd have signed JJ and seen if he had the goods or not for ourselves. But since that clearly wasn't going to happen, we got good value for him and unloaded a waste of cap space in the process. 'Cause the NHL is hardly a perfect world... that's why we play the games.

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