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IceFrog999

Grahame for Leighton

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just to add my 2 cents on this.

Cam Ward as a a third year player needs someone to push him. Cam has gotten too comfortable in the role of #1 netminder. He needs to get uncomfortable. Grahame needs to be waived and Leighton brought up. I believe Leighton would give Cam more of a run for his money.

There is a reason that Tort's said he couldn't play a goalie that could only stop 25% of the shots he faced.

Someone said an inch or two and Grahame makes the first save, more like a foot to 18 inches. His shoulders were in the shadow of the crossbar. Grahame's confidence is in the crapper, you can see it in his body language. His hands on his knees, his shoulders rolled forward, not a man playing with confidence. He is not challenging. The play where he came out to play the puck and almost took someone's head off, then the puck almost ends up in our net.

Stats are numbers, I'll give you something meaningful. Our team doesn't trust Grahame which alters their style of play, which makes them more defensive and then they play like crap. They pinch, they hesitate.

Honestly, we should have never let Gerbs go. If he was going to play backup, he could have backed up Cam and we could have taken more time to bring Cam along into a true number 1 rather than throwing him into the fire as a sophomore. He slumped last year and we all know it. All good players benefit from competition.

K~

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I totally agree with you on Gerber. If we could've kept him here, I think it really would've benefited both him and Cam.

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Honestly, we should have never let Gerbs go. If he was going to play backup, he could have backed up Cam and we could have taken more time to bring Cam along into a true number 1 rather than throwing him into the fire as a sophomore. He slumped last year and we all know it. All good players benefit from competition.

K~

We didn't have a choice to let Gerbs go. He wanted to go to a team to be the #1 goalie, he didn't want to stay in Carolina and be Cam's backup. So yeah, we didn't have a choice on that one.

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There is a reason that Tort's said he couldn't play a goalie that could only stop 25% of the shots he faced.

K~

Well that was the 2005 season. Don't know if you watch the Lightning much, but the past two season we have two new goalies that do the same thing in Tampa. Heck "the Savior" up'ed that pertcentage for majority of the games he plays. And some games, the other one does too.

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There is a reason that Tort's said he couldn't play a goalie that could only stop 25% of the shots he faced.

K~

Well that was the 2005 season. Don't know if you watch the Lightning much, but the past two season we have two new goalies that do the same thing in Tampa. Heck "the Savior" up'ed that pertcentage for majority of the games he plays. And some games, the other one does too.

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We didn't have a choice to let Gerbs go. He wanted to go to a team to be the #1 goalie, he didn't want to stay in Carolina and be Cam's backup. So yeah, we didn't have a choice on that one.

Which was the downside of Cam's run in the 2006 playoffs. He wasn't ready to ascend to a concrete #1 guy, but how do you sit a Conn Smythe winner?

Also, I've seen a Ward fan AND a Grahame fan fussing about the tilt of this thread, which tells me that it's being debated pretty fairly. Also of note, since November 1:

Ward: 10 games, 6-4, 2.70 GAA, avg. 2.90 GF (too lazy to figure up Save %)

Grahame: 4 games, 1-3, 5.00 GAA, avg. 2.00 GF

I'm hoping I've figured my math right, discounting empty netters.

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my 2 cents here, if no one minds.........theres more players on the ice than just the goalie. Yes, John may have had a bad night tonight in Buffalo but I've seen cam give up some soft ones also. The quality shots the canes were giving up on Grahame were ridiculous. It's too easy to blame the goalie. No, he 's not the best back up in the league but that not where the core of the problem lies.

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Since you have your finger on the pulse of the team ice frog, why don't you tell me what we need to do to spark the team right now. Thank God we are in the southeast, because we would be dropping like a rock in most other divisions. I hate to say it but 47 could be the death of Lavi. I really hope not, but we have been in a one month tail spin and Lavi seems to be unable to get us out. Do you think it needs to be a player trade or the coach? One or the other will happen soon because we are too talented for this to continue.

Here's the way I see it (And this is definitely going to piss a few people off). So fair warning:

We're going to lose the next 6 games. The Rangers, the Lightning, Montreal, Detroit, Ottawa and then the Flames? With the way the team is playing right now, there's no chance of beating any of them. Honestly, these struggles could not have come at a worst time.

However, a 7-game losing streak will definitely cause some changes in the organization. If it does go to 7, I can't see Lavi keeping his job. It's unfortunate, but the talent's there, so it's got to be the coaching. After we get a new coach, we'll need to grab a new defensemen. We do have a depth of forwards, and we'll probably have to get rid of a superstar because there's no way we're getting anything decent for an injury-prone defenseman (Kaberle) and a injury-prone forward (Ladd).

I'm just throwing this out there. I generally don't know anything about the workings of the organization.

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Well, Ice, after our discussion earlier on the subject, I am not too surprised about the responses on here. You know my view, and I respect yours. Will be interesting to see what happens. SOMETHING needs to, and if it is losing Grahame, so be it.

As far as if Lavi leaves, if he does, I vote for Either McCarthy, or, hate me if you want, but Francis behind the bench.

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Well, Ice, after our discussion earlier on the subject, I am not too surprised about the responses on here. You know my view, and I respect yours. Will be interesting to see what happens. SOMETHING needs to, and if it is losing Grahame, so be it.

As far as if Lavi leaves, if he does, I vote for Either McCarthy, or, hate me if you want, but Francis behind the bench.

I told you I'd get crucified on the boards, didn't I? ;)

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In my season for NHL 08 Iv got Jusin Peters as Cam's back up and he's actually good, lets call him.In all seriousness though, People think since Leighton is doing so good in the AHL that he could do better than Grahame in the NHL. First off the AHL is not the NHL and the calibur of players. Second, Leighton is geting the majority of the starts in Albany, well pull him up here, he doesnt start every game like in the AHL and plays every now and then ( like Grahame) and lose's his consistency because of not as much playing time, he does crappy and then everyone will be wanting to send him back down to. Bottom line is we play like crap infront of Jonny so I wouldn't mind calling someone else up and try to shake things up a bit. It couldn't hurt at this point.

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Look, yeah, we may care about the guys in Albany, but they have Nastiuk (who is doing very well) and Manzato down there. We could use a shakeup on the team. Even if Grahame doesnt get traded, maybe sitting him out a game or 2 and letting Leighton get a chance to show what he can do......maybe that will get into his head. Maybe Leighton wont do amazingly, but right now, neither is Grahame. I'd rather give someone a chance who has showed they are playing hot, even if it is only the AHL, and let them show what they can do up here for US. Thats my opinion.

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Look, yeah, we may care about the guys in Albany, but they have Nastiuk (who is doing very well) and Manzato down there. We could use a shakeup on the team. Even if Grahame doesnt get traded, maybe sitting him out a game or 2 and letting Leighton get a chance to show what he can do......maybe that will get into his head. Maybe Leighton wont do amazingly, but right now, neither is Grahame. I'd rather give someone a chance who has showed they are playing hot, even if it is only the AHL, and let them show what they can do up here for US. Thats my opinion.

The problem with doing that is that Leighton has to clear waivers to come up if it's not an emergency basis. If Leighton is coming up, it needs to be for the long term basis.

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In my season for NHL 08 Iv got Jusin Peters as Cam's back up and he's actually good, lets call him.In all seriousness though, People think since Leighton is doing so good in the AHL that he could do better than Grahame in the NHL. First off the AHL is not the NHL and the calibur of players.

Many people think that Leighton out played John here in the PreSeason vs other NHL teams. But Patrick Roy aint going to help us if we keep giving up 3v1 breaks on our goalies.

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The problem with doing that is that Leighton has to clear waivers to come up if it's not an emergency basis. If Leighton is coming up, it needs to be for the long term basis.

ah.....crap.....forgot about that....well....scratch that haha....

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While Grahame obviously had a bad game, the other 20 guys gave no support. No blocked shots, no offense, no spark, nothing. It's a team game for a reason. If we had some offense and scored earlier, that may have sparked Grahame to make a big save and then the team could have built on it.

Grahame is an NHL caliber backup, not a minor leaguer IMO. Just look at the goals scored against him and and how the defense was non existent on some of them. Trying to stop 2-0's all the time would be hard for any goalie, and that's what it is when our defensemen are watching the passing and shooting. And by defensemen I mean the forwards coming back too.

Look at the breaks and fluke goals the Canes scored against Washington. Take those away and it's a tie game headed to overtime or a loss, at home, against the worst team in the league.

All I can hope for is that this is the one losing slide they are on this year, and that they rebound and start playing the way we all know they are capable of. This is one of the best teams in the league, on paper. Time to crank up the effort and get back on track!

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The reality is that Ward is the #1 goaltender and should have been in net last night. Whether it's Grahame or Leighton as the back-up, it shouldn't matter because your #1 needs to carry you and do the heavy lifting and neither of these guys is a quality "go to" back-up who can be counted on regularly. They are both streaky and have holes in their game. I don't care how many AHL shutouts Leighton puts up, I've seen him at the NHL level and he is below average, not the answer.

Cam was given big money and told to get in better shape so he could step it up. So play him, he isn't going to wither by playing back-to-back games. So many #1's around the league do it but he is handled with kid gloves. If you think back to the Cup year, this team did the same thing to Ward when he was the back-up. They showed very little confidence in him and often quit skating after he gave up an early goal. It usually came on the second night of the back-to-back too.

The D was horrible last night, from the bluliners to the forwards and no goalie, including Lundqvist or Brodeur would have gotten out the game without have 4-5 put up against him. I'm not giving Grahame a free pass because he was bad but this is like hoping your second string QB or back-up catcher propels you to success. It's time to saddle up Ward and ride him.

Lavi has always preached a merit-based system and for the most part he has stuck with it. However, it's clear too that some guys haven't gotten a longer leash due to loyalty, such as Kaberle, LaRose, and Grahame. Kaberle needs to go and LaRose's game has completely come apart at the seams. He could never score but even his gritty, if uneven defense, has vanished and that's why he hasn't been on the 2nd unit kill consistently.

The maddeningly consistent issue for me is that when other teams come in after playing the night before, they always seem to start fast and the rested Canes look rusty. When the shoe is on the other foot, the tired Canes look tired and come out skating in sand. So it's now a tipping point. Do they show resolve after getting embarrassed or continue the downward spiral? It's time for a players only meeting with Brindy and Wesley asking for guys to recommit because nobody has been immune to criticism so far. That extends to the coaches who are making crazy decisions on playing time and a rotating door of PK'ers that too often includes finesse forwards who have no clue what they are doing out there.

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To clarify myself, I don't think that Grahame's poor play cost us this game anymore than Chad LaRose's hands of stone are costing us goals. It's the coaching staff's fault for playing a terrible back-up goalie against a great offensive teams riding a hot streak, playing a 4th liner with 1 point in the last 16 games in the Top 6 and other assorted horrific personnel decisions.

Grahame simply should not have beeen in net in the first place.

You hit the nail on the head with that one. Some of the coaching decisions lately have been questionable to say the least. Keeping LaRose in the Top 6 is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I feel sorry for players like Seidenberg, Ladd, and even Letowski who can't seem to buy ice time or are scratched while others like LaRose and Adams get time on the Top 2 lines and show nothing for it. We are going to ruin Ladd by playing him 5-8 minutes per game and burying him on the bench after every mistake he makes. Please let Ladd develop...although I have a feeling some other team will get that job after we trade him.

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The key words there "in the AHL". Aucoin had 90+ points a season in the AHL. We should call him up so he can take the scoring race from Vincent and Crosby :rolleyes:

You keep saying that, but not every talented player in the ahl can't translate his game to the nhl like Aucoin. Have you even watched Leighton play this year? I'm guessing you haven't because you seem to think he's ahl talent and nothing but. He's technically sound, something you can't say for Grahame who has one of the strangest and least effective styles I've ever seen. He has the ability to steal games, something I'm not sure Grahame has ever done for us. He's had some good games, but can we ever say he stole us a win? I'm not sure. Leighton routinely faces 40 shots a night in Albany and still manages to play well.

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You keep saying that, but not every talented player in the ahl can't translate his game to the nhl like Aucoin. Have you even watched Leighton play this year? I'm guessing you haven't because you seem to think he's ahl talent and nothing but. He's technically sound, something you can't say for Grahame who has one of the strangest and least effective styles I've ever seen. He has the ability to steal games, something I'm not sure Grahame has ever done for us. He's had some good games, but can we ever say he stole us a win? I'm not sure. Leighton routinely faces 40 shots a night in Albany and still manages to play well.

One thing is, it looks like Leighton has a defense playing in front of him which I haven't seen the Canes have consistently this whole season, no matter who is in goal.

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You keep saying that, but not every talented player in the ahl can't translate his game to the nhl like Aucoin. Have you even watched Leighton play this year? I'm guessing you haven't because you seem to think he's ahl talent and nothing but. He's technically sound, something you can't say for Grahame who has one of the strangest and least effective styles I've ever seen. He has the ability to steal games, something I'm not sure Grahame has ever done for us. He's had some good games, but can we ever say he stole us a win? I'm not sure. Leighton routinely faces 40 shots a night in Albany and still manages to play well.

One thing is, it looks like Leighton has a defense playing in front of him which I haven't seen the Canes have consistently this whole season, no matter who is in goal.

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Nope, Leighton doesn't get a whole lot of help a lot of the time. For a while he pretty much needed to get a shutout for the rats to win. He's stolen games for them when their offense hasn't shown up. Defense has improved lately but for a while he was facing 40 shots a game routinely.

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One thing is, it looks like Leighton has a defense playing in front of him which I haven't seen the Canes have consistently this whole season, no matter who is in goal.

Actually...if you read what Max has posted the D or the entire team at times don't show up in front of Leighton. It's been taking him getting shutouts in order for them to win up until lately.

I've read all the post game write-ups for those games and even the losses say Michael stood on his head to keep the games from being pure butt whooping.

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Actually...if you read what Max has posted the D or the entire team at times don't show up in front of Leighton. It's been taking him getting shutouts in order for them to win up until lately.

I've read all the post game write-ups for those games and even the losses say Michael stood on his head to keep the games from being pure butt whooping.

Ok, ok and I know this is a no win situation with his fans but to me I completely agree with those that say it is just minors. Its not the NHL. I've heard the players here in Tampa enough say that its a different game and experience.

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