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dabrams

WHY I THINK JR HAS GIVEN UP ON THE TEAM

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Vasicek was giving us at least some scoring depth,

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Don't make me laugh!!!!!!!!!

Great teams find ways to win. If it's stirring up the pot with some BS about "us against them" or "look what's being said in

the media"...players find ways to internalize the external hubris and use it to their advantage. Don't forget what happened after game 2 against Montreal in the cup run, the players reacted to the fans boo's during that game and used it for motivation. Then rolled off 7 straight. I say, let's give them another dose!

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Don't forget what happened after game 2 against Montreal in the cup run, the players reacted to the fans boo's during that game and used it for motivation. Then rolled off 7 straight. I say, let's give them another dose!

If the mere booing of players actually propelled them to victory, Montreal, a market notorious for quickly letting loose with the boos, would never lose. That's an argument fans use when they like to think they impact performance on the ice. The Canes were desperate and rallied around Ward, not the fans booing.

For those wondering why JR hasn't made a major deal, how many major trades have gone down so far? By my count, none.

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... the conclusion I reach is that JR won't invest the money it takes to obtain a defenseman; and instead, he'll let this year down the tubes. I hope I am wrong ...

Since I don't know what the Canes' team payroll is, dabrams -- nor do I know how much money JR can spend before he's out of money -- I'm really interested in knowing what those totals are.

It could be that the front office just has its collective hands tied with a relative lack of money; that's the reason 99.99% of the time for an organization's inability to "go out and get what the team needs," in the words of fans regardless of the sport.

In the case of my local Los Angeles Kings, the reason behind the team's tiny payroll stems from a rather unusual situation: Peter Anschutz, the organization's top dog (also the owner of numerous Major League Soccer clubs), opted to pour the bulk of his funds into securing Mr. Posh Spice for his L.A. Galaxy soccer team. Because Anshitz -- misspelling entirely intentional :P -- chose to Spend It Like Beckham, he's starved his Kings financially, making Kings GM Dean Lombardi unable to do any worthwhile deal for the next five years or so. (It goes without saying that the Kings are not exactly a small-market franchise; the club's territory of Los Angeles and Ventura counties includes roughly seven (7) million people.)

So, yes, a club's financial issues are almost always the leading cause behind the GM's not wheelin' and dealin'.

Jan/GSBG

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The problem is the coach, The guys are not buying into Lavi's system anymore.

Until he is gone you will see more of the same.

Is that all of the story, john, without any no payroll issues? Truly, this is something I'd love to ask both Lavi and JR about, face to face. (Hey, you can't stop a former journalist and her inquiring mind. ;) )

As a sports fan for almost 35 years, I've learned that situations at the pro level are always more complicated than they appear at first blush ... and, in many cases, too little money in the team payroll coffers is a huge culprit. That's especially a problem with smaller-market clubs, which is what RDU seems to be in terms of population.

Jan/GSBG

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The problem is the coach, The guys are not buying into Lavi's system anymore.

Until he is gone you will see more of the same.

Copied from the previous page cause I cant stand someone throwing out total blame. If they're not playing the system well anymore, couldnt there be other factors besides mutiny of the coach?

You have some good observations and I agree that there maybe some organizational issues going on but Im not so sure I could pin them all on coaching or the GM as this thread suggests. The system played here worked well in 06 cause the rules of obstruction were enforced by the league. When the rule became more lacks last season, it became apparent that a team based soley on speed and offense wasnt going to cut it. This is where the organization comes in...

Last summer, JR took a gamble that inconsistent play of last season was perhaps the result of a Cup hangover and long term injuries, and kept the team together hoping they'd regain their identity this season. Not so far fetched. He looked like a genius at the beginning of the season when the team was playing very well.

Now factor in other team's adjustments to our play and the fact that league has almost completely resorted back to obstruction hockey, and make it worse by factoring in the inconsistency in reffing not only from game to game, but from period to period. If you were the coach and were given a certain group of players to work with, what kind of adjustments could you make to compensate for all these uncontrollable factors? Now add in the injury problem and not only can you find inconsistency in the actual game being played, but now you also have inconsistency with the players you can put on the ice every night.

Great coaches can adjust as they go but you have to admit there's an awful lot of factors working against the coaching staff here. They can only work with the players they are given and if those players dont possess the right skill set for a certain style of play, as a coach, your hands are tied though you'll still probably shoulder most of the blame. A lot of the system the Canes play depends on having defenseman that play their roles to a tee to not only help out the forwards but to also break up rushes and bail out the goalie on a consistent basis. We dont have any defenseman that are capable of doing this consistently from night to night. Some are developing, some are fighting injury and others are just aging. Is this the coaching staff's fault for not "motivating the team", is it JRs fault for taking the gamble, is it the ownerships fault for not investing deeper or did Karmanos also buy into the gamble that JR took and thought the right players were already here?

I think the blame is pretty evenly spread around but I cant fault one particular piece of the puzzle more than another. If the right players arent provided, then the coaching staff is going to be limited to what they can achieve. If you think you have the right players, why make a change? If you trust your GM, why spend more money?

BTW, this doesn't take any blame away from the players themselves because obviously they have the only say as to what kind of effort they'll put out night after night. I dont envy JR for all the decisions he has to make about the future of this team. Do you trade away or let walk away a piece only to find out that piece was more important than previously thought (Matt Cullen). Do you try to bring in some one new who might just act as a catalyst for other players (Samsonov/Brindy). Do you base your decisons on the fact that you still hold the division lead and with some consistent effort, your team could break away from the rest of the division and potentially make a run? Do you think only for the future and make your decisions based soley on re-building with youth and a different skillset? And finally, if you're the owner or the GM, what do you with the type of players you have if you decide to change coaches and bring in a whole new system?

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The problem is the coach, The guys are not buying into Lavi's system anymore.

Until he is gone you will see more of the same.

Copied from the previous page cause I cant stand someone throwing out total blame. If they're not playing the system well anymore, couldnt there be other factors besides mutiny of the coach?

You have some good observations and I agree that there maybe some organizational issues going on but Im not so sure I could pin them all on coaching or the GM as this thread suggests. The system played here worked well in 06 cause the rules of obstruction were enforced by the league. When the rule became more lacks last season, it became apparent that a team based soley on speed and offense wasnt going to cut it. This is where the organization comes in...

Last summer, JR took a gamble that inconsistent play of last season was perhaps the result of a Cup hangover and long term injuries, and kept the team together hoping they'd regain their identity this season. Not so far fetched. He looked like a genius at the beginning of the season when the team was playing very well.

Now factor in other team's adjustments to our play and the fact that league has almost completely resorted back to obstruction hockey, and make it worse by factoring in the inconsistency in reffing not only from game to game, but from period to period. If you were the coach and were given a certain group of players to work with, what kind of adjustments could you make to compensate for all these uncontrollable factors? Now add in the injury problem and not only can you find inconsistency in the actual game being played, but now you also have inconsistency with the players you can put on the ice every night.

Great coaches can adjust as they go but you have to admit there's an awful lot of factors working against the coaching staff here. They can only work with the players they are given and if those players dont possess the right skill set for a certain style of play, as a coach, your hands are tied though you'll still probably shoulder most of the blame. A lot of the system the Canes play depends on having defenseman that play their roles to a tee to not only help out the forwards but to also break up rushes and bail out the goalie on a consistent basis. We dont have any defenseman that are capable of doing this consistently from night to night. Some are developing, some are fighting injury and others are just aging. Is this the coaching staff's fault for not "motivating the team", is it JRs fault for taking the gamble, is it the ownerships fault for not investing deeper or did Karmanos also buy into the gamble that JR took and thought the right players were already here?

I think the blame is pretty evenly spread around but I cant fault one particular piece of the puzzle more than another. If the right players arent provided, then the coaching staff is going to be limited to what they can achieve. If you think you have the right players, why make a change? If you trust your GM, why spend more money?

BTW, this doesn't take any blame away from the players themselves because obviously they have the only say as to what kind of effort they'll put out night after night. I dont envy JR for all the decisions he has to make about the future of this team. Do you trade away or let walk away a piece only to find out that piece was more important than previously thought (Matt Cullen). Do you try to bring in some one new who might just act as a catalyst for other players (Samsonov/Brindy). Do you base your decisons on the fact that you still hold the division lead and with some consistent effort, your team could break away from the rest of the division and potentially make a run? Do you think only for the future and make your decisions based soley on re-building with youth and a different skillset? And finally, if you're the owner or the GM, what do you with the type of players you have if you decide to change coaches and bring in a whole new system?

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TSA, pretty much agree with that, also agree with a lot of things said on here. in my honest opinion JR hasn't given up on the team for one simple reason. He's still here. That should be enough proof to show that he hasn't given up. People complain about our team and how there is a lack of effort and they have just thrown in the towel. I think that point will be reached when the upper management is gone, so until then let's not jump to conclusions here.

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I agree that the losses this team has experienced is not just one person's fault. It takes a team to win, it takes a team to lose. I can guarentee Coach Lavi would tell us the same thing. I believe the reasons for the loses this season are inconsistancy, injuries, and porr team work. THe games I have been able to watch this season, I noticed the defence doesn't seem to cover our goalie and they are missing alot of simple passes. That's my observastion for what its worth.

As for JR, he complains that the asking prices are too high. If there is a spending budget then he must stay within those boundaries. If the asking prices are too high then there's not much JR can do. Some recommend "dumping" some guys, but who should we dump and who could we afford to get? I have enough problems with managing my own little "team" and finances, I can't even imagine trying to do JR's job. :lol:

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Um, I'd have to say only guys you can count on scoring are Brindy, Samsonov, Cole, Staal, and Whitney - ladd larose and letowski, there no way you should rely on these guys scoring, anything they score is a bonus. However you also left out Walker and Stillman who should be counted on to score.

I hear ya, but my point is that all these guys can find the net and are failing to do so, leaving us heavy with talented forwards who are helping out on D only when the spirit moves them. They don't seem to understand that offensive success begins in your own end, as the Edmonton game proved.

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Something else I just thought of after reading this, the fact that we still have pretty much the same team as we did two years ago says a lot for the organization. Many of those players chose to re-sign here and some for a hometown discount. There are plenty of teams that struggle to keep their players after success and watch them cash in elsewhere (Buffalo). When your players chose to stay, that has to say something about how they feel about the organization, not to mention the area.

Following up on my previous post, let me be clear about the Canes and its management. I am a huge fan of the team and one of the reasons why I moved my allegiance to Carolina when the Whalers left Hartford was that I think Karmanos is a great owner and Rutherford a great GM. The success they have had since moving into an area with no significant history of hockey is remarkable and we should all be grateful to them for that. (I was a Whalers fan for 14 years and that organization never came close to what the Canes have achieved.)

Carolina is still a small hockey market and we all have to understand that the amount of money needed to go out and acquire a number of high profile players is just not available. We have to be grateful to Jim Rutherford for his overall record of success in spotting and recruiting very competent players at prices the organization could afford, (e.g. Whitney, Cullen, Stillman, Hedican and Commodore). My only concern about the organization is that it may not have been active enough in improving the farm system, but that also costs a lot of money).

When any of us begin to feel frustrated with our organization we should stop and compare ours with those those that have a lot more going for them in terms of money and market size. Think of how over the years the managements of the Leafs, Rangers, Blackhawks, Flyers, Bruins and others have just squandered their advantages over the rest of the league.

The main point of my post was to criticize the players who, through their lack of effort, are letting down a management team that has done, and continues to do, a super job and a fan base that is enthusiastic and growing. No one, no matter what his job is, can perform at his peak every day and I believe hockey players are no exception. However the level of effort should not vary by much day-in and day-out. So far as I can tell, strength and speed of skating, forechecking, getting back on defence and so on should be relatively constant every game. If teams are doing badly it should be because timing is off, players have lost some confidence in their shooting or passing, lack of communication because of lack of confidence or playing with unfamiliar partners, etc.

I hope someone will convince me that my criticism of the players for lack of effort is wrong because I like these players even though I am very disappointed with this aspect of their play.

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Copied from the previous page cause I cant stand someone throwing out total blame. If they're not playing the system well anymore, couldnt there be other factors besides mutiny of the coach?

You have some good observations and I agree that there maybe some organizational issues going on but Im not so sure I could pin them all on coaching or the GM as this thread suggests.

Totally agree. Every year I have watched the Canes (since 1998, STH since 2000), there have been some organizational/locker room issues. There are issues on every team. Not like Mike Kenan issues,.... but issues. Anyone who has a job knows about issues at work and you have the same in an sports organization. I work for a company that makes millions but there are issues the management work and it takes time. It is a revolving issue.

Sometimes when people complain or say things, it reminds me of some Jr. Wall Streeter directly out of undergrad asking why General Motors or that stock he picked is not number 1 on the Fortune 500 and stomps his foot in disgust. Ok, maybe that is an exaggeration but I am trying to drive a point.

Does it come from underfunding? Not sure but the Canes payroll is higher than many teams so not sure about that, but I know that the Canes can not afford 10 postions to shuttle paper that maybe teams like Toronto can??

Not playing Defensive positional hockey is not the coach or GM's fault, especially when they have done so in the past. And if it is a team issue, then they will try to fix it next year or before trade line. Rome was not built in a day and our team will not win the Cup every year.

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Yeah, I noticed that too. I've seen Brindamour, Ward, Grahame, Hedican, Staal and Cole all mentioned at one time or another. What it comes down to and some may not like this....the TEAM is not as good as many fans think it is. Its that simple, they are lacking talent in some areas of the team. They are lacking confidence in others. Some players have met their personal goals and are playing like so. The coaching has run out of ideas and can't seem to motivate anymore.....my point....its bigger than one guy. If your gonna point fingers for reasons for losing you better have alot of hands.

I look in the direction of the 06 championship season, I mean, all those folk jump on the wagon only to realize that this team is not goiong to kick*edit*every year. And that makes them angry lol. Welcome to the slighty better 02-03, folks.

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I look in the direction of the 06 championship season, I mean, all those folk jump on the wagon only to realize that this team is not goiong to kick*edit*every year. And that makes them angry lol. Welcome to the slighty better 02-03, folks.

not exactly, winning and losing for the most part is cyclical so when it appears that the talent is there to put together a good string of seasons, people really get excited about it. Its the expectation placed on this team, this isnt a rebuilding phase, this is the time they need to compete in the playoffs. Fans should be frustrated when million dollar athletes under perform.

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The Canes were desperate and rallied around Ward, not the fans booing.

Not so, I'll try to find the quote, and it may not be a print quote but in the Stanley Cup DVD, but if memory serves me correctly the quote went something like this, and maybe even from BrindAmour:

"The media's given up on us, the fans have given up on us"......

I think that's more than just rallying around the goalie.

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Not so, I'll try to find the quote, and it may not be a print quote but in the Stanley Cup DVD, but if memory serves me correctly the quote went something like this, and maybe even from BrindAmour:

"The media's given up on us, the fans have given up on us"......

I think that's more than just rallying around the goalie.

I think his meaning was that they never stopped believing in themselves, which isn't the same thing as the fans booing inspiring them. If that's all it took, the PP would #1 in the league by a longshot. All the booing lately has done nothing to improve it.

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Hardly any moves out there that are worth taking a risk on...our future is more important than any single season, imo. We went for it all in 05-06 and it worked out great...now the product isn't producing as much success and everybody wants JR to make a big splash and give up some of our future for this current season. That would be the worst-case scenario in my eyes, simply because one player or even two isn't going to solve all the problems. What we've seen this year has to do with some fundamentals, imo, and not just individual players. You can't trade for fundamentals and/or confidence, they have to come naturally and be with the entire team for the whole thing to work well. We had that in our Cup year, and not so much since then. I think JR recognizes some of these things, so he's hesitant to pull any major trigger realizing that it probably won't help too much. He wants to make sure that we have a viable future and can remain competitive in the Eastern conference for years to come...instead of just being a one-hit wonder every five years or so. The line on this season is still out, but I think we all realize now that we really aren't that good of a team and that some major changes are probably needed when the season ends so that the recent past doesn't repeat itself next year. That's when I'll judge JR, on how he does at the end of year in terms of fixing the team and getting the mojo back that we once had. I won't judge him now based on whether or not he makes any quick-fix deals to help this current season...because imo it's not in his hands to fix; rather it's still in the hands of the players and coaching staff to make something out of the remaining games that we still have to play. At the very least, we need to have a little progress going into the offseason.

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I do not think JR has given up on this team. I think, like the rest of us Caniacs, JR is befuddled and his options truly are limited. How can you make a trade if no one wants to trade? JR has shown he can make a deal if the conditions are right. The evidence is Rod Brind'mour now in our line up and in 06 when he brought in Rechi and Weight. As for players wanting to stay here, that says a lot for the organization and the types of players it attracts. We do have players who are quality people and not a source of embarassment. And I say again, as a native North Carolinian and an ice hockey fan, I am grateful to have the Canes, I never thought growing up watching the Checkers of the old Eastern Hockey league, we would ever have an NHL team in our state, much less one that has had the success the Canes have had. This seasons may be a bust, but we will see better times.

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I am confused as to how he has given up...but here is what I posted somewhere else as far as lack of trades.

JR realizes there is more to be fixed than just one or two additions. Since that is the case and because the price for quality players is so high it is better to just stick it out with what we have. How many of you would be okay with seeing Colesy go to get a player who will be here for a couple months and probably be gone...and most likely isn't going to be the solution to this team. I know I don't want to see that.

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Given the fact no major trade has been accomplished to date despite the obvious need for defensive help, the conclusion I reach is that JR won't invest the money it takes to obtain a defenseman; and instead, he'll let this year down the tubes. I hope I am wrong...

Given the fact - that about 22 teams have a good chance of being in the playoff race down to the last day, and that the quality player(s) JR might be looking at don't come at a dime a dozen, I've reached the conclusion that being a GM of an NHL team in no way resembles playing Monopoly with your buddies.

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Given the fact - that about 22 teams have a good chance of being in the playoff race down to the last day, and that the quality player(s) JR might be looking at don't come at a dime a dozen, I've reached the conclusion that being a GM of an NHL team in no way resembles playing Monopoly with your buddies.

But being on a message board and playing armchair GM does ;)

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Given the fact - that about 22 teams have a good chance of being in the playoff race down to the last day, and that the quality player(s) JR might be looking at don't come at a dime a dozen, I've reached the conclusion that being a GM of an NHL team in no way resembles playing Monopoly with your buddies.

But being on a message board and playing armchair GM does ;)

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