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pilige

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The only thing holding Ladd back was his injuries and his conditioning. But he's younger, bigger, cheaper and is developing into a good to very good power forward who likes to set up shop in front of the net. If anybody has stalled in their development, its Ruutu--he has never found the groove since he was injured and plays more and more like his 3rd line grinder/agitator brother everyday. Maybe the Canes tempo will suit him better--but I just haven't seen a legit scoring threat from Ruutu in the past couple of years.

And if he is going to play like Scott Walker--he should be payed like Scott Walker--and hopefully start to become the leader that Walker is. Which is the one place I can see him developing. But he does have to overcome his high initial expectations and the greedy agent.

No this organization has handled Ladd the wrong way from the day they drafted him. They put him on this team way too early. His potential is a top 6 power forward, playing him on the 3rd and 4th lines is not helping his development. With the depth we have up front, the kid would never get off the 3rd or 4th line.

Put it this way: Cole is another power forward, he was not a first round pick, yet when he came on this team he was given top 6 minutes immediatley. Ladd was a first round pick, he was rushed on the team, but has never gotten the chance to really play a top 6.

Your telling me that putting your first round pick on the 3rd and 4th lines isn't stalling his development. He should have been up on Staal/Coles line, not Whitney or Stillman.

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On Gleason. We need him. I'm all for JR trying to get the best deal possible, but sign him.

On Ruutu. We would like him, but his proven value is 3rd line. His potential is probably 2nd line with a shot at first line if it all falls together. But he has not done anywhere near that in his carreer thusfar.

Still both are restriced, so will be signed eventually, at least for a year.

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I was trying to get a handle on the offensive value of Ruutu relative to other forwards and looked at career numbers for points per game. Here's my list:

1. Brind'Amour: .86 (tie)

1. Staal .86 (tie)

3. Whitney .80

4. Sampsonov .69

5. Williams .67 (tie)

5. Cole .67 (tie)

7. Cullen .51

8. Walker .50

9. Ruutu .48

10. Eaves .45

A couple of things interested me. First, our captain has had an awsome career averaging as many points/game as Staal. Let's not write him off yet.

Sampsonov is going to rock. His numbers included those inexplicably terrible years before he got here and are still very respectable. Given a full year on this team, he should be right up there with Whitney, Staal, and Brindy.

Whitney is a very reliable point scorer. Giving up his points would be difficult to replace.

Ruutu and Eaves are all about potential. Many of the league's second tier scorers went though several years in the NHL scoring 10 goals/year and then just broke out. Both of these guys could do that with the Canes. But their current production is 3rd line.

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I was trying to get a handle on the offensive value of Ruutu relative to other forwards and looked at career numbers for points per game. Here's my list:

1. Brind'Amour: .86 (tie)

1. Staal .86 (tie)

3. Whitney .80

4. Sampsonov .69

5. Williams .67 (tie)

5. Cole .67 (tie)

7. Cullen .51

8. Walker .50

9. Ruutu .48

10. Eaves .45

While this is one way to look at things it is oversimplifying from a statistical view.

There are so many more factors to be considered.

What lines the players play on (ice time and supporting cast)

Their role on the team

What teams they played for

How long in the league

etc etc.

That being said strictly by how the players rank in this stat these fall out in 3 groups and look like 1st, 2nd and 3rd line groupings as you would expect.

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Couple of things.....I think the fairest way to look at the Ruutu/Ladd deal is to look at it in the context of what happened with all the players the Canes sent to Chicago and all the players we got back....quite frankly we really made a deal that looked like this:

Andrew Ladd and Craig Adams for Tuomo Ruutu and Sergei Samsonov

Secondly, I think there's a lot of "short selling" going on w/Ruutu. This guy is the real deal w/25+ goal/65+ point potential. Maybe I'm overstating the case, but look at the production he put up in the World Championships.....when he was in Chicago he was moved all over the place (much like Ladd was here) going up and down all their lines, never really given much more that a few games to settle in with linemates. His production understandably fell and his development stalled. Try and remember back when he played a few games on Staal's line....he was rocket fuel - slick skater, good puck handler, very decent shot....he's got all the tools. I think it is innaccurate to say he isn't a Top 6 forward. All he needs is the real opportunity to play with higher-end linemates.

Yet, it seems that what's going on is very typical and less "poker playing" and more strategic team management. Could there be a deal to be had on Draft Day, absolutely....and if it involves one of our Top 6 forwards, then Tuomo gets slotted in on one of the top 2 lines...and he'll get something more like "top 6" money. Or there's a deal involving Ruutu as a trading chip. If we get a D-man back on Draft Day, then some of Gleason's leverage is lessened and his negotiation takes a different tone. Or perhaps Gleason gets qualified and he becomes a trading chip himself. Somebody tell me what a Cole/Gleason/draft position deal could yield us? We could end up with 2 blueliners, a prospect, and a lower 1st round pick and both sides probably would think they came out smelling like a rose. Take out Cole and substitute Ruutu and you get 2 blueliners and a lower 1st round pick (and/or maybe another 2nd rounder depending on the quality of the blueliners coming back to us).

So the delays in signing Gleason and Ruutu feels like its more about other deals than their specific negotiations. My gut tells me that the only way these guys aren't wearing the sightless eye next year is if we've got two new guys to love.

Just my two cents worth.....

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Wow, all is not lost yet. Its only June and it takes time to put things together. Agents and GM's will negotiate, play hardball and play a few mind games. Using the media is all part of the deal. Id suggest folks sit back, relax and watch how things play out or else this board will end up in panic mode.

Now, if we still have some glaring holes to fill when camp starts, feel free to get anxious then.

Edit: what Kahz said ^^

I agree... Sit back and watch the game. The players will want to get a fair price and not end up being traded to Siberia. I imaging JR has all sorts of irons in the fire and what ever happens it will all work out.

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Sorry to be a little grammar cop here, but it's Samsonov, not Sampsonov.

But you do have some good points. Our offense is one of the best in the league, and our team doesn't get enough recognition for that. We were 5th in goals scored last year, but that is useless if we can't keep the puck out of our own net. Losing Ruutu to gain a defenseman might not hurt us that much this year, and if the defenseman is young it won't hurt us in the future.

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I agree... Sit back and watch the game. The players will want to get a fair price and not end up being traded to Siberia. I imaging JR has all sorts of irons in the fire and what ever happens it will all work out.

THANK YOU! (from the against the Chicken Little Crowd advocate)

Same thing every year. Much wringing of hands and endless speculation.

Sit Back, Chill, have a Beer (in my case)

Come back after July 1st to wring the hands if needed.

:P

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Except for bringing Ladd up a year early--I don't think he was handled poorly IF it was part of a plan. He does have first round talent and skill--but he was (is) a young Power Forward. And those take longer to develop. He was given a few shots on the top lines and couldn't keep up the consistant play. Until right before he was traded--maybe because he was older and healthier. The plan should have been to develop his overall game for a couple of years--and then slot him in Cole's spot or someone to come in after Cole is off the ice to keep up the pressure. I don't think lines matter as much on the Canes because only the center's truly put up mega minutes, the forwards will get more even playing time through three lines.

As for the comparison to Cole coming up--1--the Canes of Ladd's upbringing are way more talented than the Canes of Cole's upbringing. And 2---Cole was coming out of college to the NHL, not Junior Hockey.

As for Ruutu--Ladd played less minutes and was rotated thoughout the lineup like Ruutu was in Chicago and scored at a better pace in the Windy City. And in less minutes. I don't know if Ruutu was overrated coming into the league, just can't recover from the back and knee injuries or is just playing "safe" and doing what is natural for him, but he is nowhere near the offensive threat he was billed to be or showed during his early career.

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As for Ruutu--Ladd played less minutes and was rotated thoughout the lineup like Ruutu was in Chicago and scored at a better pace in the Windy City.

Didn't he spend a good amount of time playing on a line with Kane and Toews? Because that'll help you score.

I don't think Ruutu ever played much with the two phenoms.

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Ruutu started the season with the phenoms and Ladd started there as well--but after a few games, Byfluglien was taking a good deal of time on that line.

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The thing with Ladd is we have no idea if he would ever reach his potential here. With the depth we have up front, I honestly think his development would have stalled here. For Ladd, being traded to Chicago was the best thing for his future. There he is playing on a young team and will be able to continue to develop, I just don't think he would have developed into that player he was drafted to be here.

So in my mind comparing him to what he will do in Chicago is not a fair comparison that he would have done the samething here. I just don't think he would have as he wouldn't be getting the same opportunity here as he is in Chicago.

For me, I am fine with trading Ladd b/c in my eyes he wouldn't have developed here. We were holding him back for whatever reason and not giving him the green light. In Chicago he will get that green light.

This post shows a lot of character and I agree.

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As for Ruutu--Ladd played less minutes and was rotated thoughout the lineup like Ruutu was in Chicago and scored at a better pace in the Windy City. And in less minutes. I don't know if Ruutu was overrated coming into the league, just can't recover from the back and knee injuries or is just playing "safe" and doing what is natural for him, but he is nowhere near the offensive threat he was billed to be or showed during his early career.
Why does it matter what Ruutu did in Chicago? Ruutu scored more points-per-game with Carolina than Ladd did with Chicago (.65 to .6). Ruutu also played a lot on the PK here, which Ladd never did (our PK was very good after we acquired Ruutu).

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Why does it matter what Ruutu did in Chicago? Ruutu scored more points-per-game with Carolina than Ladd did with Chicago (.65 to .6). Ruutu also played a lot on the PK here, which Ladd never did (our PK was very good after we acquired Ruutu).

.65 to .6? apples to apples, over a season that only averages to 53 and 49 points.

Though IMO comparing the 2 players is like apples and oranges. Each player "should" be good at different things. Ladd "should " be good in front of the net and Ruutu "should" be a good agitator(IMO Whitney type). That is ofcourse a lot of shoulds. Only time will tell.

If Ruutu and Gleason really want to play here then they will. I really do not want players here because of the money...at that point they aren't playing with the most important ingredient; HEART.

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.65 to .6? apples to apples, over a season that only averages to 53 and 49 points.

Though IMO comparing the 2 players is like apples and oranges. Each player "should" be good at different things. Ladd "should " be good in front of the net and Ruutu "should" be a good agitator(IMO Whitney type). That is ofcourse a lot of shoulds. Only time will tell.

If Ruutu and Gleason really want to play here then they will. I really do not want players here because of the money...at that point they aren't playing with the most important ingredient; HEART.

Respectfully I think that you can seek to be compensated for your skills at a level that you think appropriate (and the market will tell you what that is) AS WELL AS play with a lot of heart - IMHO, they are not mutually exclusive....the Hurricanes organization is and must be run as a business. That's the only way its going to stay around....and knowing that, the players (and their agents) will choose to run their salary negotiations like a business as well. Quite frankly it is what each side should do to both stay at the top of their profession. Then, being professionals, when the deals are done, they will both, hopefully, get back to the other business at hand - winning hockey games. And in so doing they will demonstrate heart, desire, grit, etc.

These guys are all living their dreams of playing in the NHL. Their careers are often short and their bodies take an incredible toll. So I will never blame them for using each and every situation to their advantage. Conversely I will never blame the team for playing hardball, walking away from deal, making difficult player choices (via trade or free agency), etc. It is the team's "dream" to stay in business and field the most competitive and financially sound "business" possible. They know that being competitive is the surest way to run the business into the black. Small market or non-traditional hockey market teams have to be more creative while being extremely careful financial managers - hence the situation w/Gleason, Ruutu, Seidenberg, and LaRose....and the concerns about Cole.

This is all part of the business and great theater to watch....I agree with the previous posters who have stated, "....just don't get too wrapped up in the drama of it all". The professionals will rise to the top on both sides of the negotiations.

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Wow... it's possible that we could be left with merely "compensation" from the remnants 4th overall pick of the '04 draft and the 3rd overall pick of the '05 draft a mere three years after the fact. Lovely.

Gleason is obviously the priority here, and we really need to hammer out a deal - a FAIR deal - with #42. Ruutu is more of a wild card, and I had a bad feeling about his contract situation when we made the trade in February. Sure, he brought us a more physical presence on the ice, but 1) we're loaded at forward, and 2) I think his production can be replaced cheaper via free agency. Who exactly, I don't know, but I'd guess it's out there.

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Bottom line---when Ladd was here we were not winning, when Rutuu got here (and others) we started winning. Rutuu stats and playing here at Carolina were better than Ladd's. Who cares what each of them did or does at Chicago, it matters to this organization what they did when they are/were here.

JR is a genius and he rocks. He will do the right thing with signing them/trading them or others to play here, we just have to sit back and wait it out. When was the last time anyone really predicted correctly what, how and who JR was going to sign or trade any player, he usually surprises us and blows us away with his picks and just being the great GM that he is.

On paper last season we should have been in the top 3 teams in the Eastren Conference, that was not JR's fault that his players did not follow through to their expected potential. The Rat Pack with JR's new trades saved this team from ending up finishing last in the conference. Lets not forget that (and please don't start with the flu and injury excuses, this is hockey, it happens to all teams, not just Carolina.)

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The Canes were 9-1 in the ten games before Ladd was traded--and he was on a scoring streak at the time. So not really sure where the not winning part comes from....

But the part about JR is spot on and I agree with those who say to ignore the drama. This is a business and everybody needs to realize that fact. Before Suter signed, there wasn't really a baseline for the Canes or Gleason to go by and now that there is--either there will be a deal for a bit less money--or there won't. Gleason is a RFA he can go to arbitration or take the qualifying offer for the next two years and then negotiate with everybody. And then he could still be a Cane. Or not. Same with Ruutu--he either takes the deal or not. As long as the Canes give him a qualifying offer, they keep his rights. If somebody wishes to pay him more than that, JR will have to decide which deal is better. To get Ruutu--a team would have to give up at least a first and third and for Gleason, a 1st, 2nd and 3rd. So, basically--just let it play out, nobody is demanding a trade or threatening to sit out or any of that nonsense.

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Gleason's contract should be in line with Carle, Burns, Suter and to an extent Backman and Schultz. They all have an average cap hit of about $3.5 million for 4 years. The only outlier contract is Phaneuf at $6.5 million. That is what Green is probably asking for.

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The Canes were 9-1 in the ten games before Ladd was traded--and he was on a scoring streak at the time. So not really sure where the not winning part comes from....

But the part about JR is spot on and I agree with those who say to ignore the drama. This is a business and everybody needs to realize that fact. Before Suter signed, there wasn't really a baseline for the Canes or Gleason to go by and now that there is--either there will be a deal for a bit less money--or there won't. Gleason is a RFA he can go to arbitration or take the qualifying offer for the next two years and then negotiate with everybody. And then he could still be a Cane. Or not. Same with Ruutu--he either takes the deal or not. As long as the Canes give him a qualifying offer, they keep his rights. If somebody wishes to pay him more than that, JR will have to decide which deal is better. To get Ruutu--a team would have to give up at least a first and third and for Gleason, a 1st, 2nd and 3rd. So, basically--just let it play out, nobody is demanding a trade or threatening to sit out or any of that nonsense.

Actually you are correct that Ladd went on a scoring streak before we traded him (probably why we were able to trade him with the deal we got). We played 11 games from Feb. 2, 2008 to Feb 23, 2008 (his last game with the Canes) with 7 wins and 4 losses (but not bad of course for us at the time), not sure where your getting the 9-1 before he was traded on Feb. 26, 2008. I never thought of Ladd as being a dynamic player for this team and did not have the impact that Rutuu had with this team and fans. It was fun and amazing to see the impact Rutuu left on this team in such a short amount of time. Ladd never had that kind of impact.

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Hopefully we sign them... I'd hate to see them go!

Hopefully, things will turn out ok, maybe like Scotty walker last year, everyone kinda thought he was gonna be a free agent but then he signed his deal--

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Actually you are correct that Ladd went on a scoring streak before we traded him (probably why we were able to trade him with the deal we got). We played 11 games from Feb. 2, 2008 to Feb 23, 2008 (his last game with the Canes) with 7 wins and 4 losses (but not bad of course for us at the time), not sure where your getting the 9-1 before he was traded on Feb. 26, 2008. I never thought of Ladd as being a dynamic player for this team and did not have the impact that Rutuu had with this team and fans. It was fun and amazing to see the impact Rutuu left on this team in such a short amount of time. Ladd never had that kind of impact.

My bad on the wins--was using the wrong date---but what deal? Ruutu was close to being benched and had not tallied a goal in the last 20 some games. He was closer to getting sent down then he was to getting a contract extension.

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