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StateColeFan

Erik Cole

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Do you not understand simple math? Walker makes 2.5mil, Whitney 3.5mil, Kaberle 2.2mil. All are signed at least through this yr and next. Bieksa makes 3.75 mil for 2 or 3 more yrs. Why would ANY team take on over 8mil in salary for the next two yrs while giving up a young top4 defenseman? Not to mention one of your proposed players has a NTC. This is a business;GM's don't use NHL08 like it's evident you do...

Beiksa makes 4.25 million, then 3.75 and 3.75. I have heard Walker would waive if he were going to Vancouver or Nashville. Im just saying we have got to get rid of whitney while we can still get something good (not great, not if it were cole or williams) for him. It is completely pointless to have two guys that do the exact same thing, especially if one is re-emerging as a star and the other is ageing.

I can see a Whitney+Eaves (the contract may entice GM`s)/ Ruutu/ 1st round pick get us someone we need.

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Why wouldnt Walker, Whitney and Kaberle to Vancouver or Nashville get us Suter or Beiska?

Do you not understand simple math? Walker makes 2.5mil, Whitney 3.5mil, Kaberle 2.2mil. All are signed at least through this yr and next. Bieksa makes 3.75 mil for 2 or 3 more yrs. Why would ANY team take on over 8mil in salary for the next two yrs while giving up a young top4 defenseman? Not to mention one of your proposed players has a NTC. This is a business;GM's don't use NHL08 like it's evident you do...

How many times has it been said in this thread, you cannot get a young star defenseman by throwing all of our old players together!! Do you not see this?? Can you see that young players are a lot more valuable than older ones, especially when they all have over 10 years on him. While yes Walker and Whitney are big parts of our team, their value when traded is not at all the same. Let's brake it down like artvandelay did.

To Vancouver:

RW 35 years old, with cap hit of 2.5 for next two years=3rd/2nd line winger for 2 years.

LW 35 years old, with cap hit of 3.55 for next two years=2nd/1st line winger for 2 years.

D 32 years old, with cap hit of 2.2 for the next two years=bottom pairing D-man at best for next 2 years, not worth having.

So with this you get Kaberle who is old and terrible, lessens value of deal, Whitney who you will get 2 years of 2nd/1st line playing provided that he does not get injured which is common, and last you get Walker with who you get 2 years of 3rd/2nd line playing.

All of this will cost you 8.25 million per year.

To Carolina:

D 25 years old, with cap hit of ~3.75 for next 2 years=Top pairing D-man for 3 years with the possibility of at least 7 or so more years.

All of this will cost you 3.75 million per year.

Do you see now? The age of those three is what really puts the deal down. If Whitney was 29, then we might be looking at him straight up for Bieska, with a pick/prospect most likely. Both Walker and Whitney could retire at the end of their current contracts. Bieska has a lot more time after his. If you pile more old players on to the deal it will not help the deal!! Also please remember, it has been said before, Kaberle will lessen the value of any trade! We will not be able to pawn him off during our trade for a top pairing defenseman. So please stop putting him in your offers, in NHL 08 his 79 or so overall is waaaaayy overshot. And then lastly, we are not going to be able to get young stars for old players! There is just no way. Not to mention walker has a NTC. While these players have good overalls in NHL 08 and you can trade them with age not factoring it much at all, this not NHL 08, it will not work! So please stop going to the game, because it's obvious you do, you said it earlier in the thread.

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Beiksa makes 4.25 million, then 3.75 and 3.75. I have heard Walker would waive if he were going to Vancouver or Nashville. Im just saying we have got to get rid of whitney while we can still get something good (not great, not if it were cole or williams) for him. It is completely pointless to have two guys that do the exact same thing, especially if one is re-emerging as a star and the other is ageing.

I can see a Whitney+Eaves (the contract may entice GM`s)/ Ruutu/ 1st round pick get us someone we need.

No, Bieska is 4.25 then 3.5 and 3.5 which averages out to 3.75 a year, please get the facts right before you correct others.

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Great post Ryan.

And to add about pawning Kaberle off on other teams.

Let's go back to 2006 when Tverdovsky was pawned off on LA. Who did LA get back in return, Jack Johnson. A first round pick who is projected to be a #1 or #2 defenseman in this league.

If anything we will be taking on another team's garbage, not the other way around.

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Before we decide to pawn off Kaberle, look at how he played at the end of the season. He looked a lot better and he seem ed to have his confidence back. Lets wait and see how he does at the begining of the season.

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And perhaps his shoulder surgery will make him better. I could live with Kaberle and Wallin as the 5-6 pair with Borer and Seidenberg waiting to step in if one or both flounder, as long as we pick up the following: One absolute stud defenseman and one solid defenseman (either could be the puckmover or shutdown, but one of each) to replace Weseley and Hedican.

The key would be this. If Kaberle comes out soft and looks bad to start, then the team HAS to be done with him. Same with Wallin. Whatever it takes. Just waive them if we can't move them out. Move Borer and Seidenberg in quickly if they flounder at all. Just like will happen to Lavi if the team flounders.

Still, if we could somehow dump one or both and use Seidenburg and Borer on that last pair. Even better.

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Before we decide to pawn off Kaberle, look at how he played at the end of the season. He looked a lot better and he seem ed to have his confidence back. Lets wait and see how he does at the begining of the season.

Yea... Kaberle is horrible, he's proved that to us over the past 2 seasons. Unfortunately, we overpaid to keep him in town because he scored the Cup winning goal, so now we're stuck with him. The only way we get rid of him (or Wallin, if he drops his NTC) is if we sweeten the deal with someone else. In fact, pairing him with Cole in a deal would most likely (as Ryan said) lessen what we get back from a 1st line d-man to a 2nd line d-man. I mean, look at what happened when we traded off Teverdovsky, we get Gleason and Letowski, they get Oleg, Jack Johnson, and draft picks. As nice as Gleason has been, he's no Jack Johnson, and in the end, they won big on that deal, but we got rid of dead weight, so that was to be expected. As much as we would love to ship either out of Raleigh, it isn't happening. The only way they stop playing for the Canes is if they are just straight up cut from the team or claimed by someone else off waivers, and thats because the Canes would still be picking up most of their salaries.

Also, you're not going to be able to package our old guys and expect to get something awesome and fresh. In fact, if JR were to deal away someone like Whitney right now, I could see it only ending up being for a bunch of draft picks, or some career 2nd/3rd liner who will never have the same impact he has. Heck, even Brind'Amour would bring weak value back to this team in return (unless it was at the deadline to a team that was utterly desperate, in which case, a deal like that could pay dividends in the future). In order to get the guys we need we're going to have to make a deal like Cole plus a draft pick (I'm guessing it'll be a 2nd rounder) to sweeten the deal, but not go over the top, for another team's young potential stud d-man who the team won't be able to afford in the coming years because of the cap. At this point, that is the only thing I can see JR doing in a trade. I don't see him going after a veteran because we need long term help, I don't see him settling for a prospect, because we need the help now and we don't have the time to wait for a kid to develop. We need the help now, so look for that team who is on the verge of a firesale, who would love the opportunity to build a franchise around a player like Cole, who could really use that 2nd rounder for depth in the future, and you have yourselves a potential trade partner.

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Yea... Kaberle is horrible, he's proved that to us over the past 2 seasons. Unfortunately, we overpaid to keep him in town because he scored the Cup winning goal, so now we're stuck with him. The only way we get rid of him (or Wallin, if he drops his NTC) is if we sweeten the deal with someone else. In fact, pairing him with Cole in a deal would most likely (as Ryan said) lessen what we get back from a 1st line d-man to a 2nd line d-man. I mean, look at what happened when we traded off Teverdovsky, we get Gleason and Letowski, they get Oleg, Jack Johnson, and draft picks.

...

Letowski was a free agent signing, he wasn't part of that deal. The second player who came to Raleigh was Eric Belanger.

As far as return you can get a potential top pairing guy for Cole and maybe Kaberle, but he wouldn't be able to step in now on the top pair, he would at best be a raw third pair defenseman, which isn't what this team needs right now. A real top pair defenseman is worth more than Cole.

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we get Gleason and Letowsk

i'm pretty sure it was belanger, not letowski, that we got from the kings. july 1st is still a while away so maybe JR can trade for a RFA's rights. i doubt we'd have to give up a whole lot to a team that can't sign the player anyway and they just don't want to be left without anything.

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Yea... Kaberle is horrible, he's proved that to us over the past 2 seasons. Unfortunately, we overpaid to keep him in town because he scored the Cup winning goal, so now we're stuck with him. The only way we get rid of him (or Wallin, if he drops his NTC) is if we sweeten the deal with someone else. In fact, pairing him with Cole in a deal would most likely (as Ryan said) lessen what we get back from a 1st line d-man to a 2nd line d-man. I mean, look at what happened when we traded off Teverdovsky, we get Gleason and Letowski, they get Oleg, Jack Johnson, and draft picks. As nice as Gleason has been, he's no Jack Johnson, and in the end, they won big on that deal, but we got rid of dead weight, so that was to be expected. As much as we would love to ship either out of Raleigh, it isn't happening. The only way they stop playing for the Canes is if they are just straight up cut from the team or claimed by someone else off waivers, and thats because the Canes would still be picking up most of their salaries.

Also, you're not going to be able to package our old guys and expect to get something awesome and fresh. In fact, if JR were to deal away someone like Whitney right now, I could see it only ending up being for a bunch of draft picks, or some career 2nd/3rd liner who will never have the same impact he has. Heck, even Brind'Amour would bring weak value back to this team in return (unless it was at the deadline to a team that was utterly desperate, in which case, a deal like that could pay dividends in the future). In order to get the guys we need we're going to have to make a deal like Cole plus a draft pick (I'm guessing it'll be a 2nd rounder) to sweeten the deal, but not go over the top, for another team's young potential stud d-man who the team won't be able to afford in the coming years because of the cap. At this point, that is the only thing I can see JR doing in a trade. I don't see him going after a veteran because we need long term help, I don't see him settling for a prospect, because we need the help now and we don't have the time to wait for a kid to develop. We need the help now, so look for that team who is on the verge of a firesale, who would love the opportunity to build a franchise around a player like Cole, who could really use that 2nd rounder for depth in the future, and you have yourselves a potential trade partner.

I think the key thing here is to neither overestimate nor underestimate the value of players on either side of a trade. As I've said Cole has some "downside" issues to go along with his extremely rare talents of grit, speed, strength, and scoring ability. Almost every player mentioned in these discussions as coming back to the Canes has some downside as well. So while I think that there are players more "valuable" to other GMs than Cole, I'm sure there are Top 4 d-men that we could get for a Cole. The key is do we want a #3 or #4 to go w/Corvo (especially after Frankie turned it up a notch for the last 25 or 30 games when paired w/him) or do we want a #1 or #2 to go w/Gleason. If we want the former, we can probably trade Cole and get the d-man plus a pick or prospect back....if we want the latter then its Cole plus some asset(s)....or we pull off a much bigger trade.

Now that Gleason's negotiations are proving "testy", its not inconceivable that we would package Timmy and Erik. Think Nashville or Chicago and think of the return that we could get for that - both have two or more very attractive D-men that could come back as part of that deal....and with Gleason as part of it, there wouldn't necessarily be the view that they were selling their defense for offense. It would also seem to me that we might end up w/$1 million in extra cap space after a deal like that (considering how much its gonna cost to sign Gleason)....its not out of the question that in the case of Nashville we could get a Top Pairing guy plus another blueliner AND be able to manipulate picks in the upcoming draft (trade down getting Nashville's pick and add a 2nd or 3rd rounder) ... of course I would hope that I would never have to see them in the Finals though ;-)...

Short of a C*p run, this is certainly the most interesting time of year....

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Letowski was a free agent signing, he wasn't part of that deal. The second player who came to Raleigh was Eric Belanger.

As far as return you can get a potential top pairing guy for Cole and maybe Kaberle, but he wouldn't be able to step in now on the top pair, he would at best be a raw third pair defenseman, which isn't what this team needs right now. A real top pair defenseman is worth more than Cole.

IMHO, Cole + a 2008 second rounder + a 2009 2nd rounder + possibly even Kaberle would be enough to get us that kind of player

You're right, Cole alone is not enough to get us that top d-man we're looking for, but add in a couple 2nd round picks (or if you wanted, you could substitute a 1st round pick for those 2 2nd rounders, then add in a 3rd or 4th round pick and still be gravy) and you'd have yourself a deal. To a rebuilding team, the ability to acquire Cole and to add on picks for either use in the draft or key pieces of other trades they use in the future would be enough to satisfy them. I mean, put yourself in the shoes of the Toronto Maple Leafs right now (or any other franchise that is on the doorstep of a firesale). If JR comes to you with the offer I just described above, would you take it? I'd probably try to get the Canes to add in something else just to see if I could, but in the end, I'd definitely take it. In the end, even if Cole doesn't work out, you've still got those draft picks to use for future players that could become key to your franchise in the future.

And by the way, thanks for the correction about Letowski/Belanger. It was a guess on my part because I was too lazy to look it up.

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Obviously I'm a little biased, because Erik Cole has been my favorite player ever since I saw him in a Canes jersey during the 2001 preseason, but why is everyone calling for him to be traded? I know he's good bait for a defensman trade, but do we really want to give him up? People were on here ragging on him him all season long, saying his signature move doesn't work, how he's streaky, and hasn't been the same since his injury (which I do agree with somewhat). But in all of that last year, he still managed to be our third leading scorer with 51 points in 73 games and was +5 which is tied for third on the team. I know we desperately need a defensman, but do we really need/want to trade him. We had the most powerplay opportunities in the NHL, and many were a result of Erik Cole's strength and speed, just imagine if our PP had been clicking a little better. I think he brings an energy to the ice that no one else on the team brings, not to mention his chemistry with Staal. I just think if he stays healthy all year, he can be even more of a threat. And do we really want to face him if we trade him??? Discuss

I think we need to keep Cole. I believe he is great paired up with the younger players. Plus, he takes a big hit but keeps coming back for more!

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I think we need to keep Cole. I believe he is great paired up with the younger players. Plus, he takes a big hit but keeps coming back for more!

nobody will argue that point but this is a business decision, if we hold onto him then most likely he will walk away after next season and we will get nothing in return. This is where the discussion comes from.

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If someone says they dont want to be ttraded, saying he would be "disappointed" if it happened, doesnt seem like the same type of person like Gomez, or Breire, who will no matter how loyal or fan favored, bolt for money somewhere else. No, it really doesnt seem like thats Erik Cole. He will resign if he is still a cane. Whitney&Walker should go.

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This is still the same Erik Cole that, even after his neck injury, only wanted to sign a one-year contract after the '05-'06 season so he could test free agency as soon as possible. Rutherford had to throw alot of money his way to get him to sign an extended contract, I doubt he'll be able to do it once more. I would still rather see Walker and Whitney moved to continue the youth-movement that Rutherford started last season, which clearly made this team better. Cole can still be a valuable contributor to this team, especially in a contract year. Besides, if it doesn't work out, he would be the best "rental player" available at the trade deadline and the Hurricanes could get quite a return for him from a team that feels they are one player away from contention.

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nobody will argue that point but this is a business decision, if we hold onto him then most likely he will walk away after next season and we will get nothing in return. This is where the discussion comes from.

I have learned that this is a game of money and business.

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Why would me move two of our top 9 forwards? Then we have 8 and have to put LaRose on the third line, and as much as I love him, he belongs on the 4th.

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If someone says they dont want to be ttraded, saying he would be "disappointed" if it happened, doesnt seem like the same type of person like Gomez, or Breire, who will no matter how loyal or fan favored, bolt for money somewhere else. No, it really doesnt seem like thats Erik Cole. He will resign if he is still a cane. Whitney&Walker should go.

Cole will demand $6-8mil and we just won't pay that, especially with Staal to be resigned soon. Walker has a NTC and Whitney is too injury prone so from a business side you just won't get the same return. So do you trade one high value player you know you aren't gonna be able to resign or two lower value players. If you are a GM on another team to you want Cole or Walker/Whitney?? I would take Cole every time. You seem to think that we can just throw our garbage out there and other teams will be happy just to take it, it doesn't work that way.

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Why would me move two of our top 9 forwards? Then we have 8 and have to put LaRose on the third line, and as much as I love him, he belongs on the 4th.

Ruutu / Staal / Cole

Samsonov / Brind'Amour / Williams

Eaves / Cullen / Sutter

Sutter may not be ready for that type of role, but there is little doubt in my mind that he'll be rushed into the line-up like our last few first-round draft picks have been. This team really doesn't need LaRose as Eaves is essentially the same type of player with better offensive skills.

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If someone says they dont want to be ttraded, saying he would be "disappointed" if it happened, doesnt seem like the same type of person like Gomez, or Breire, who will no matter how loyal or fan favored, bolt for money somewhere else. No, it really doesnt seem like thats Erik Cole. He will resign if he is still a cane. Whitney&Walker should go.

I'd be disappointed to if I got traded and didn't leave on my own terms. Getting traded is like us getting fired, only difference is they still get to work and make money. Stillman said he loved it here as well, yet he waived his NTC to leave. Players say stuff all the time, but it doesn't neccessary mean its true. Just b/c he doesn't want to be traded doesn't mean he doesn't want test the free agent market in a year. Think about it, would you want to be traded knowing you can go whereever you want in 1 year? If I were him with a wife and 2 young kids, I'd rather stay where I'm at for a year, then pack my family up and move.

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Cole will demand $6-8mil and we just won't pay that, especially with Staal to be resigned soon. Walker has a NTC and Whitney is too injury prone so from a business side you just won't get the same return. So do you trade one high value player you know you aren't gonna be able to resign or two lower value players. If you are a GM on another team to you want Cole or Walker/Whitney?? I would take Cole every time. You seem to think that we can just throw our garbage out there and other teams will be happy just to take it, it doesn't work that way.

What makes people think that Cole is going to demand 6-8 million a year? Barring some massive season, he has played right about what his contract dictates. A 25 goal scorer who leads the team in hits. I would imagine if he has a similar season, he'll get paid the same amount in his next contract. Now if the past two seasons have been a readjustment, and sometimes injuries take a season or two in sports to get back to 'right', and he puts up 40 goals he can try and demand 6 million. But if he's going to score 40 goals this season, I think it'd be worth it to have him in a Canes sweater while he's doing it, and we'll probably be a cup contender.

I just don't foresee the doomsday scenario of him scoring 25 or so, and asking for 6 million a year. There is no precedent for it.

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What makes people think that Cole is going to demand 6-8 million a year? Barring some massive season, he has played right about what his contract dictates. A 25 goal scorer who leads the team in hits. I would imagine if he has a similar season, he'll get paid the same amount in his next contract. Now if the past two seasons have been a readjustment, and sometimes injuries take a season or two in sports to get back to 'right', and he puts up 40 goals he can try and demand 6 million. But if he's going to score 40 goals this season, I think it'd be worth it to have him in a Canes sweater while he's doing it, and we'll probably be a cup contender.

I just don't foresee the doomsday scenario of him scoring 25 or so, and asking for 6 million a year. There is no precedent for it.

Because his agent plays hardball and just because the Canes will stick to ~$4 million for him doesn't mean that someone else won't offer more. Just because you yourself don't think that he deserves $6-$8 million doesn't mean someone else won't.

Cole is going to be a UFA. We don't have the cash reserves or the Cap space to continue to keep Cole, especially with what he will get on the market next year. We keep him this year and we lose him next offseason to someone else and get nothing in return. We need help and we need help now. Cole is our biggest asset who is expendable. Hockey is a business, and if you stop trying to grow and improve you fall behind. Well, our chance of growing and improving is by packaging Cole with other assets and getting some defensive help in return.

I have also noticed something else. Most of the people on here who are trying to justify keeping Cole around are people that have either Cole in their login name, Cole as their avatar, or a picture of Cole in their signature. Its blatantly obvious that for the most part, people are only thinking with their hearts and not their brains. I bet most of these people are also ones who blasted JR for the Stillman-Commodore for Corvo-Eaves trade last year, because of how likable Commodore and Stillman were. Sorry, hockey is a business and people have to accept the fact that their favorite players sometimes just aren't going to cut it anymore on this squad. I like Cole as much as the next guy, but I absolutely love competing and contending for the Cup, and without defensive help and depth for Ward, that just isn't going to happen. For long term growth of this franchise, one of these forwards have to go, and I'd much rather it be the guy who gets injured every year who's playing hurt 90% of the season and still making $4 million than it to be some aging veteran who we can use as a deadline deal come next March if we absolutely need to. Cole can get us something big now, Walker and/or Whitney can get us something big later. Perhaps this is the season where we see all of those things happen.

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Cole is not going to command 6-8 million...thats Hossa money, sorry, if he returns to his old form and stays healthy for an entire year and has that massive season...Cole will still only command 4-5 million, not that much. Please understand he is not a superstar to anyone else but us, the fans of the Carolina Hurricanes. Cole is not an idiot either, I assume he knows he will not be getting 6-8 million from anyone. If he loves playing here as much as he says he does, which i think is the case...he will take 4-4.5 million.

Whitney, Walker and a prospect could get us Beiska. I know it could. Whitney would explode with the Sedins, and Walker fits VERY nicely with their system.

Beiska and Timmy would be a great first pairing for us.

Cullen-Staal-Cole

Samsonov-Brindamour-Williams

Ruutu-Sutter-Eaves

Conboy-(PK Specialist/Hamilton)-Larose

Beiska-Gleason

Corvo-Kaberle/Hainsey

Seidenberg-Borer/Carson

I think either Borer, Carson, or Seidenberg will play great for us this year. Carson and Borer bring size and can move the puck. I like Seidenbergs shot blocking and offense, with consistant minutes he will be able to produce.

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Cole is not going to command 6-8 million...thats Hossa money, sorry, if he returns to his old form and stays healthy for an entire year and has that massive season...Cole will still only command 4-5 million, not that much. Please understand he is not a superstar to anyone else but us, the fans of the Carolina Hurricanes. Cole is not an idiot either, I assume he knows he will not be getting 6-8 million from anyone. If he loves playing here as much as he says he does, which i think is the case...he will take 4-4.5 million.

Whitney, Walker and a prospect could get us Beiska. I know it could. Whitney would explode with the Sedins, and Walker fits VERY nicely with their system.

Beiska and Timmy would be a great first pairing for us.

Cullen-Staal-Cole

Samsonov-Brindamour-Williams

Ruutu-Sutter-Eaves

Conboy-(PK Specialist/Hamilton)-Larose

Beiska-Gleason

Corvo-Kaberle/Hainsey

Seidenberg-Borer/Carson

I think either Borer, Carson, or Seidenberg will play great for us this year. Carson and Borer bring size and can move the puck. I like Seidenbergs shot blocking and offense, with consistant minutes he will be able to produce.

How thick is your skull? Numerous posters have very clearly pointed out to you that QUANTITY does not equal QUALITY. Are you able to point to one deal such as this occurring in recent memory? Deals where older players net younger proven players pretty much only come around trade deadline day. Players like Dustin Penner(younger and pretty much the same stats as cole) have gotten more than 4 million recently. Cole has played hardball in the past. The only way JR would be able to retain him next yr is if PK dramatically increases the payroll or if Cole has an off-yr. Just like the Corvo/Eaves trade, Cole's UFA status automatically makes him the easiest to move. Not to mention we have to cut salary somewhere amongst the forwards to make room for d-men. Walker and Whitney combined make 6mil, but if you trade both of them, we're instantly down a top-nine forward. As well as vet leadership amongst the forwards. Who takes over Whitney's contribution on the PP? Samsonov has only demonstrated a high-level of play for 30games. Whitney has for 3 seasons. I'd like 2 playmakers on both PP units, Samsonov on one, Whitney on the other. Also your lines suggest Cullen moving to wing? He's always played his most effective hockey at center-ice. Look at game 7 of the SCF. He was the best player on the ice. Look at last yr before he was injured, he was on pace for 70pts-as a center. Sutter will not be ready for third line minutes right of the bat and he shouldn't be expected to be ready. Your proposal leaves us in need of another top-9 forward, and another top6 forward when there's just not enough $$ to keep both Staal and Cole.

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