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caniac59

Forbes Ranks Canes Profits Last in the NHL

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A good article about how the team stands with making money in Raleigh, not a good picture. This is a little scary info about our team. Maybe we should be a little more understanding when it comes to ticket prices. We really need to make the playoffs this year or I'm afraid of the future of this franchise in Raleigh. Remember to never say never when it comes to saying "they'll never leave Raleigh". If you can't make a profit, why stay?

http://canescountry.com/blog/2008/10/30/forbes-ranks-carolina-profitability-last-in-nhl/' target="_blank">http://canescountry.com/blog/2008/10/30/fo...ty-last-in-nhl/[/post]

Do you understand the difference between "paper" losses and real losses?? PK has a sweetheart deal for the RBC Center and won't walk away from that. They just need to find the right formula to put butts in the seats. They could triple ticket prices but then would lose half of their season ticket holders or more. They could cut prices and have a full arena but not make a decent profit.

you also have to consider that we didn't qualify for revenue sharing due to a lack of growth in our market.

if you read the entire article then you would have to ask yourself what are the "other" expenses, what is PK putting in that category to show a loss. the article states that our "other" expenses are higher than anyone else in the southeast and higher than all teams generating our level of revenue or less.

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Do you understand the difference between "paper" losses and real losses?? PK has a sweetheart deal for the RBC Center and won't walk away from that. They just need to find the right formula to put butts in the seats. They could triple ticket prices but then would lose half of their season ticket holders or more. They could cut prices and have a full arena but not make a decent profit.

you also have to consider that we didn't qualify for revenue sharing due to a lack of growth in our market.

if you read the entire article then you would have to ask yourself what are the "other" expenses, what is PK putting in that category to show a loss. the article states that our "other" expenses are higher than anyone else in the southeast and higher than all teams generating our level of revenue or less.

As they say in the business world it's the bottom line that matters and that was no profit with a loss. If the deal was such a sweetheart deal than why does he have a loss? If he could break even I wouldn't be so worried. Can you even imagine the loss he would have had if he didn't have the deal with the RBC Center?

The fact of where the "other" expenses are is mute, it's a loss. Knowing what the other expenses isn't going to change the fact it was a loss. Hopefully having a loss is a good write off for his other businesses to offset those taxes. One can only hope.

I don't even want to think about what might happen if we don't make the playoffs again. However, I really don't believe he would leave in the next 3 years, however if things don't get better, why would he stay, sweetheart deal or no sweetheart deal?

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I didn't realize that the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund owns the Maple Leafs. Thats gotta make for a nice field trip!

Even though they haven't made the playoffs in awhile its still amazing that they are the #1 franchise.

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I didn't realize that the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund owns the Maple Leafs. Thats gotta make for a nice field trip!

Even though they haven't made the playoffs in awhile its still amazing that they are the #1 franchise.

Toronto and Montreal could go 0-82 and thier stadium would still require standing room only on game 82

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What a huge difference in everything between the Canes and Leafs. Over 3 times the revenue and 88 dollar ticket average compared to 37. I was surprised how far behind Montreal is compared to Toronto.

Now on a totally serious note, since the Leafs are keeping the NHL afloat shouldn't every call be going towards the Leafs? Shouldn't every cup go to the Leafs? :P

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their profits last but revenue 22nd so based on the average attendance and ticket prices plus alledged lack of sponsors that makes sense. The profit margin doesnt make sense, 30 Mil + in overhead expenses is absurd. Arena cost is 4, travel? 2, employees? 5, what am I missing?

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Toronto and Montreal could go 0-82 and thier stadium would still require standing room only on game 82

In the case of Toronto, they'd be SRO because of how many corporate seats they have.

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Please, no one start a Hurricanes to Charlotte thread. This topic keeps getting beat to death. For those worried about the cane moving then the solution is simple, GO TO A GAME!! Tell your neighbor and your neighbors neighbor.

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Please, no one start a Hurricanes to Charlotte thread. This topic keeps getting beat to death. For those worried about the cane moving then the solution is simple, GO TO A GAME!! Tell your neighbor and your neighbors neighbor.

LOL..no offense, but if the Canes would go anywhere why would they go to Charlotte?? So they can kill another successful minor league team (the Checkers) and then move again?

From what I've read on here and other places people in Charlotte dont really care anything about hockey at all and attendance would be worse in Charlotte then it would be here.

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BUY MORE CANES MERCHANDISE! :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I wouldn't really worry. From here, there is no place to go but up. It still amazes me the Florida Panthers, Columbus Blue Jackets, and Phoenix Coyotes have a better profit. I was surprised it wasn't the Jackets in last.

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LOL..no offense, but if the Canes would go anywhere why would they go to Charlotte?? So they can kill another successful minor league team (the Checkers) and then move again?

From what I've read on here and other places people in Charlotte dont really care anything about hockey at all and attendance would be worse in Charlotte then it would be here.

there is no reason but every time forbes comes out with this list about NHL finances someone starts a thread that they heard from a second cousin twice removed on their neighbors side that the Canes are moving to Charlotte.

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What a huge difference in everything between the Canes and Leafs. Over 3 times the revenue and 88 dollar ticket average compared to 37. I was surprised how far behind Montreal is compared to Toronto.

Now on a totally serious note, since the Leafs are keeping the NHL afloat shouldn't every call be going towards the Leafs? Shouldn't every cup go to the Leafs? :P

LOL

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there is no reason but every time forbes comes out with this list about NHL finances someone starts a thread that they heard from a second cousin twice removed on their neighbors side that the Canes are moving to Charlotte.

closer than Winnipeg or Kansas City eh?

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Seriously though, I wouldn't really worry. From here, there is no place to go but up. It still amazes me the Florida Panthers, Columbus Blue Jackets, and Phoenix Coyotes have a better profit. I was surprised it wasn't the Jackets in last.

I was most surprised by how far up the Kings were ranked, I think it was around 10th :blink: Pretty surprising for a market I wouldnt consider hockey would do well in AND with a struggling team, no less.

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Forbes does not have access to any of these numbers. They are estimates based on who knows what. Please do not waste your time thinking about what kind of financial shape Forbes magazine thinks the Hurricanes are in. Karmanos said earlier this year that it is possible that the team could make a profit this year even if they do not make the playoffs. I would beleive him before I would beleive Forbes on this issue.

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i guess all that talk about toronto possibly getting a second nhl franchise is supporting by those forbes numbers. with the economy in the state that it's in, it will be difficult for carolina to bring up those numbers. does anyone know how this year's attendance (so far) compares with last year's???

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Forbes does not have access to any of these numbers. They are estimates based on who knows what. Please do not waste your time thinking about what kind of financial shape Forbes magazine thinks the Hurricanes are in. Karmanos said earlier this year that it is possible that the team could make a profit this year even if they do not make the playoffs. I would beleive him before I would beleive Forbes on this issue.

I was about to make the same point. Last I checked, the Canes are a privately owned organization, which means they don't have to open up their books to the public, which is where Forbes Magazine is in relation to the Canes. If the numbers were as bad as Forbes makes it seem, would the self-imposed cap have risen to where it is? Or would it have fallen to 2002 levels?

The economy in Raleigh is going to perform better over the next several years than many other hockey markets, and we all know the Triangle has been and will continue to grow at a nearly absurd rate for a while. The sky is not falling.

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i guess all that talk about toronto possibly getting a second nhl franchise is supporting by those forbes numbers. with the economy in the state that it's in, it will be difficult for carolina to bring up those numbers. does anyone know how this year's attendance (so far) compares with last year's???

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2009''>http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2009' target="_blank">http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2009[/post]

Historical numbers from seasons past are available here as well. We've only had 2 home games this season though, so, it'll be several weeks before any accurate comparison can be made to years prior.

Edit: I was curious how the historical attendance numbers look on a graph, and here's what I've got. Please note the year shown is when the season ends; IE 2008 is the 07-08 season. I didn't bother putting 2009 on here since we've only had 2 home games thus far and our current numbers are higher than where they will stay at 18,680 good for 9th in the league.

The graph shows consistent, albeit shaky, growth over several years. Take from it what you will, but our attendance numbers are positively growing.

canes_attendance.gif

PLEASE DO NOT HOTLINK THIS IMAGE TO ANOTHER SITE. If you want to use the image somewhere else, be my guest. But please host the image on your own server or use photobucket or something, thank you!

Also, I've started updating my Canes Points graph again for those who have followed it in the past. Link in my signature.

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As someone who follows this very closely and follows the business of hockey, I have found the yearly forbes numbers not viable. I think the revenue is too high in the report by about $15M and the loss was in the $10M mark....... but who knows what is in that $10M.

That said, attendance is down and I think the Canes prepared well but depends on the walk up sales which drives a lot of attendance numbers in the US and in Raleigh.

This weekend will be interesting as 2 games and one with Cole coming back.

The first look at how they are doing will be the first Mon-Thurs game hat is not on the 26 game plan. See how they do?

But as stated, this is reason everyone should go to games and tell everyone how to go to games

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If you aren't in business, you don't have a clue about not showing a profit. It's the revenue stream that counts. Missing the play-offs affects the revenue stream.

PK is one shrewd dude. If PK's other businesses are showing a profit, he will be happy to off-set that with a loss here. A loss on the balance sheet is not the same as a loss in the standings. ^_^

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