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WhalefaninCT

Is it time?

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JR should be held a bit accountable, his deal for Corve should have happened at least a month earlier. We'd lose 2-3 and he'd be ready to make the move and we'd win one and he'd settle back down until the next 2-3 game losing streak.

Everyone from Karmanos down to Coaching down to the players is accountable for last season.

Usually I feel maganagement gives us the best possible team to play each season but it absolutely ticked me off management AND the forums felt last season a 3rd line center was our biggest need given how bad our D was the year before. Just about the entire forum was looking for a 3rd line center while I sat here and said...Ya know....our D looks like booty. To which the response was OMG we got Cullen we're set for the season.

Everyone should be held accountable but I dont necessarily agree that everyone was just focused on the third line center. I could link back to multiple threads questioning the defense last season from these boards, Lukes Blog and the so called experts. Cullen was a huge piece and I get why folks were excited about that but I dont think everyone overlooked the defense.

A agree that JR and Karmanos should also be held accountable for their decisions and for thinking that the team last year would somehow overcome its complacency on its own, but JR doesnt control the overall financial decisions just like Laviolette doesnt get to choose all his players.

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I voted for "when it's obvious we'll miss the playoffs", and if that ends up being after the last game of the season like it was last year, we do it then and there. I like Peter Laviolette and I think he's a great coach, but 3 consecutive years of failing to make the playoffs, especially playing in this division would fully use up any credit left over from winning the Cup in 2006. And forget about the excuses - injuries, bad luck, percieved league conspiracies

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I voted for "when it's obvious we'll miss the playoffs", and if that ends up being after the last game of the season like it was last year, we do it then and there. I like Peter Laviolette and I think he's a great coach, but 3 consecutive years of failing to make the playoffs, especially playing in this division would fully use up any credit left over from winning the Cup in 2006. And forget about the excuses - injuries, bad luck, perceived league conspiracies

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Everyone should be held accountable but I dont necessarily agree that everyone was just focused on the third line center. I could link back to multiple threads questioning the defense last season from these boards, Lukes Blog and the so called experts. Cullen was a huge piece and I get why folks were excited about that but I dont think everyone overlooked the defense.

A agree that JR and Karmanos should also be held accountable for their decisions and for thinking that the team last year would somehow overcome its complacency on its own, but JR doesnt control the overall financial decisions just like Laviolette doesnt get to choose all his players.

If you were to make a bar graph of the pages discussed for 3rd line center verus defensemen last pre-season I am fairly certain your going to see a big difference between the two. The only time I can recall our suspect D coming up in discussion is when I brought it up on occasion and the topic would died rather quickly because we had Cullen and our overly potent offense was just going to outscore the opposition.

However in December it was what everyone was talking about! :)

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My vote was for "Extended lulls in performance...again". I think it is hard to put a hard number or timeframe on this. It seems obvious that Lavi is on the hotseat, just look at how long it took J.R. to say he would be back this year. I think if the players are healthy and the team is floundering, it will not take long at any point in the season for a change to be made.

I'll agree that Coach can only work with the players that J.R. signs, but it is more likely that J.R. fires Lavi than him firing himself. While all of J.R.'s signings and moves haven't panned out, the overall record is very good. We aren't saddled with big dead contracts like some teams. Most will point to Kaberle and Wallin, but those aren't big dollars in today's NHL.

Lavi's style works well, but it seems like it requires an influx of new blood regularly. The first year after the Cup, the team stayed mostly the same. The poor performance was blamed on injuries and few changes were made again going into last season. After a good start, the team again tanked. Injuries and call ups again impacted things. Change has to be made so an underachieving Ladd is traded for an underachieving Ruutu. Samsonov falls out of the sky, but again, he was an underachiever. The Corvo/Eaves trade to me looked like a move to the future more than a move to make a playoff push, but again, these guys had gotten lost in the shuffle with the Sens. These were some huge gambles, but it takes a gambler to make hockey work when you can't spend up to the salary cap (see the Cole/Pit trade). Enough rambling, I think J.R. has done about as well as he could with the limits Karmanos has placed on him. I agree that he probably has another couple of years cushion before his job is in question.

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I voted for Extended lulls in performance. I think it would need to be more than one extended lull. I also

think a lot would depend on the motivation or lack of motivation in the locker room before a coaching change is made. If a coaching change isn't made before all star break I think Lavi gets to finish the season. I hope he does. He was instrumental in bringing the cup to Carolina and that should count for something!

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I voted for Extended lulls in performance. I think it would need to be more than one extended lull. I also

think a lot would depend on the motivation or lack of motivation in the locker room before a coaching change is made. If a coaching change isn't made before all star break I think Lavi gets to finish the season. I hope he does. He was instrumental in bringing the cup to Carolina and that should count for something!

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I love Lavi but if the team isnt getting the job done, something will have to change. Last season JR went with player shake ups and it helped to a point. The roster is now very different so the next shake up would be in coaching. JR already made changes with the assistant coaching position so the head coach is the next logical move to be made.

Lavi did show that with fresh blood (Rats), he can still motivate this team to win. Hopefully all the new faces will have a fresh new outlook and the vets have embarassed themselves to want to start fresh.

Oh, and lets hope they stay healthier too.

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I am really glad that people finally started to talk about the subject of this thread instead of bashing the thread starter. Looks like to me it's going to end up being a good discussion. I myself voted on missing the playoff's because it's usually the coach that takes the brunt of the blame. It may not alway's be right but thats just the way it is.I hope they kick butt and we don't have to worry about this problem. Only a month to go and we can start talking about the regular season games, no need to take it out on thread starters because we are all suffering from "HOCKEY WITHDRAWL"..!! :blink::blink:;)

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Torts in Raleigh as a Christmas present

Please. no.

I think that we will have a good year and Laviolette will stay, but if he goes, I would assume he would be replaced by Rowe.

Nothing like having your replacement called up to be your assistant.

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I think one thing JR won't tolerate again is another extended period of lackluster play, no matter when it might happen. That arguably cost us the post season last year. Was the lackluster play Lavi's fault? Players not having their head in the game unless they were down 2-0? All the trade talks and rumours? JR putting his nose into Lavi's business? Kaberle? Ward? All of the above? I don't know. Fact is though, we often played better with the Rat-posse in the line up than with some regular veterans, and I still feel that something peculiar must have been going on behind the scenes for them to fall off like that and for so long.

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I think one thing JR won't tolerate again is another extended period of lackluster play, no matter when it might happen. That arguably cost us the post season last year. Was the lackluster play Lavi's fault? Players not having their head in the game unless they were down 2-0? All the trade talks and rumours? JR putting his nose into Lavi's business? Kaberle? Ward? All of the above? I don't know. Fact is though, we often played better with the Rat-posse in the line up than with some regular veterans, and I still feel that something peculiar must have been going on behind the scenes for them to fall off like that and for so long.

JR did make comments how he thought certain players seemed satisfied/content with one cup win. Makes you wonder if he weeded those guys out.

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I think one thing JR won't tolerate again is another extended period of lackluster play, no matter when it might happen. That arguably cost us the post season last year. Was the lackluster play Lavi's fault? Players not having their head in the game unless they were down 2-0? All the trade talks and rumours? JR putting his nose into Lavi's business? Kaberle? Ward? All of the above? I don't know. Fact is though, we often played better with the Rat-posse in the line up than with some regular veterans, and I still feel that something peculiar must have been going on behind the scenes for them to fall off like that and for so long.

Karmonos shouldn't tolerate it either and also be looking for a GM!! I think Scotty Bowman wants complete control so he could be an option.

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Karmonos shouldn't tolerate it either and also be looking for a GM!! I think Scotty Bowman wants complete control so he could be an option.

I'm still wondering why you hate JR so? I respect your stance but Id like to hear some of your reasons.

Without JR:

You wouldnt have enjoyed that Stanley Cup parade or that suprise run in 2002. You wouldnt have Brindy as your captain, Staal as your future captain or JWillie wearing the sightless eye. Francis may not have taken a chance coming to this unknown market to help build the sport of hockey, and then eventually go to work in the front office but he put his trust and his career in a guy who had a great reputation around the league. And finally, the coach in which you put all your eggs in his basket may not be here either.

Just wondering.

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I don't hate JR, I have actually met him and respect him but if you are gonna run the coach out of town for a less than perfect season then you also have to hold the GM accountable. Just part of business!! And unless you are hiding a crystal ball somewhere you don't know what we would have had with a different coach/GM combo.

As I have stated repeatedly thru this thread and others, I would rather watch a losing game with Laviolette as coach than a winning game with Maurice. Maurice was king of the dump and chase (or as I call it "boring hockey"). I love Lavi's attacking style, JR just needs to be constantly on the hunt for guys that can "man up".

But if you guys are gonna start a lynch mob after Laviolette then you need to bring two ropes and take JR too!! You can't hold one person accountable and not the other (current president aside).

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The discussion in this topic has been very good, lets not criticize others for having differing opinions. They are all just opinions.

Thanks.

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Sorry TSA, just looking for reasons.

Lynch mob?? Who's lynching Lavi here? JR himself put Lavi on the hot seat so why wouldnt we discuss the what ifs? The same topic was attempted to be discussed on LSB. Better send your email of disgust to Chip too.

You keep mentioning Mo but you do realize the reason he's gone and Lavi's here is because of JR?

And Im gonna have to call you on one thing (and its not personal), but you say you'd rather have a Lavi loss than a Mo win? Did you really mean that you'd rather have a loss than a win? That's all Im saying. :rolleyes:

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And I'm gonna have to call you on one thing (and its not personal), but you say you'd rather have a Lavi loss than a Mo win? Did you really mean that you'd rather have a loss than a win? That's all I'm saying. :rolleyes:

I realize JR fired Mo, three weeks into that season I was chanting "Mo must go" from the rafters!! But personally he waited too late to salvage that season just like he waited to late to pull the trigger on the Stillman and Commie trade. You forget we only needed a win or two to make the playoffs. And yes I mean it!! It's like this, under Mo we played not to lose, walk away with a tie, or is this day and age the one point. It was sixty minutes of dump and chase hockey. To me that is extremely boring and not worth having season tickets for.

Laviolette plays to win and when we lose it shows on his face (Mo just smacked his gum and had an "oh well" attitude). I have to respect that! He also plays an up tempo game (they can't score on you if the puck is in their zone and in their net). I for one will always prefer to watch sixty minutes of "run and gun" to sixty minutes of "dump and chase" no matter the outcome. If your guys are leaving it on the ice every night you will respect that a whole lot more than mailing it in.

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I realize JR fired Mo, three weeks into that season I was chanting "Mo must go" from the rafters!! But personally he waited too late to salvage that season just like he waited to late to pull the trigger on the Stillman and Commie trade. You forget we only needed a win or two to make the playoffs. And yes I mean it!! It's like this, under Mo we played not to lose, walk away with a tie, or is this day and age the one point. It was sixty minutes of dump and chase hockey. To me that is extremely boring and not worth having season tickets for.

Laviolette plays to win and when we lose it shows on his face (Mo just smacked his gum and had an "oh well" attitude). I have to respect that! He also plays an up tempo game (they can't score on you if the puck is in their zone and in their net). I for one will always prefer to watch sixty minutes of "run and gun" to sixty minutes of "dump and chase" no matter the outcome. If your guys are leaving it on the ice every night you will respect that a whole lot more than mailing it in.

You win. JR must not have gotten your text message about firing MO earlier. :rolleyes: And I dont think that firing MO earlier would have helped with all the injuries.

See, I guess this topic is worth discussing ;)

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I'm confused as to the JR hate as well. Yeah, he always seems a step too late with some of the deals, but you have to remember that it's a cooperative process. He can't exactly call up another GM and say "I want so-and-so by Sunday. It is my will and so it shall happen!"

The way I see it, he's collected a great deal of talent on the team. The team is talented enough to make the playoffs and probably go far. If they don't, then the problem has to lie elsewhere, and the coach is usually the first thing that gets looked at.

As for the poll, I say we give Lavi until Christmas. If we've got a losing record, or even a .500 record, we're going to have to look elsewhere. Doesn't make me happy, but it means for whatever reason, Lavi's lost the team. Normally, I'd say the first 15 games or so, but we've got a killer opening schedule, and very few coaches would be able to pull a solid winning record out of it.

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If the choice were mine I would sign both JR and Lavi to lengthy extensions, I will watch this brand of hockey no matter the outcome. The only way I would fire either one is if they make bonehead move after bonehead move (we trade Corvo and Pitkanen for Rory Fitzpatrick and then let him center the top line (for those that don't know he is a defenseman)). If we get hit by the injury bug again I don't see how any one can fault Lavi or JR (maybe Friesen).

You can't just look at us being under .500 and automatically saying Lavi is the reason. You have to look at how we played each and every game until then. If we lose Brinday, Staal, and Cullen in the first game of the season we will be in a world of hurt. Nothing a coach can do so that would be on the GM.

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I'm confused as to the JR hate as well. Yeah, he always seems a step too late with some of the deals, but you have to remember that it's a cooperative process. He can't exactly call up another GM and say "I want so-and-so by Sunday. It is my will and so it shall happen!"

The way I see it, he's collected a great deal of talent on the team. The team is talented enough to make the playoffs and probably go far. If they don't, then the problem has to lie elsewhere, and the coach is usually the first thing that gets looked at.

As for the poll, I say we give Lavi until Christmas. If we've got a losing record, or even a .500 record, we're going to have to look elsewhere. Doesn't make me happy, but it means for whatever reason, Lavi's lost the team. Normally, I'd say the first 15 games or so, but we've got a killer opening schedule, and very few coaches would be able to pull a solid winning record out of it.

JR likes to let people know that nothing is certain. Basically putting fear in others to create change and hard work. In my opinion we do have great talent and glad to see some youth this year. The problem isn't with Lavi it actually goes back to JR. Last 2 seasons we have had older veterans with high pay, some with NTC. Because of their high pay they were getting most of the ice time and if they aren't producing we are stuck with them. Lavi has to play the guys with the high salaries who are past their prime. JR should be accountable for making bad business decisions.

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JR did make comments how he thought certain players seemed satisfied/content with one cup win. Makes you wonder if he weeded those guys out.

A lot of people thought that too but I don't know. Somehow I can't see all those Pros coming back all fired up from a disappointing season and start off exceptionally good the first month, then they all of a sudden said to themselves "oh well, we got enough of a lead and I'm content with my ring so I'm not gonna bust my *edit* anymore." ?

That doesn't make much sense to me and I find it hard to buy into JR's (official) assessments at times. By virtue of his job, Lavi fits into the equation all the way around though. He is the tactitian and motivator even if it only means adjusting his system to the available talent and making the best of the talent while some regulars are out, or biding enough time for JR to make some moves without getting raked over the coals by some other GMs. I think the bottom line is that that didn't happen and he lost a lot of kudos because of it. That's not saying that I would just point my finger at Lavi though. The Rats played their butts off while a lot of others couldn't get going or had no idea what they needed to do; Stiller said he knew about him being shopped around for a month, about the same time he started his month-long slump; only the penalty box could stop Commie from pinching in; Staal fell into a slump too because for some weird reason he was busier trying to hit people than score; Cole was rumored to be shopped as well but he has been streaky all along; Ladd's ice time started to vary more; Willie got hurt and all along, our D looked like it didn't know whether it was coming or going while Ward was still in backup mode for Gerber. I think if you needed to fix some or all of that, the first one you would look at is Lavi.

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I found interesting what Forslund said this morning on 99.9. He was talking how last year, the team was divided: forwards vs defense. He said if you asked a defenseman what was wrong they'll say the forwards aren't coming back and helping out. If you asked a forward, they'll say the defense can't move the puck.

JR went and got defenseman that can move the puck. Forslund said its now the forwards job to come back and help the defense b/c the defense will be getting them the puck. He also mentioned how with adding Corvo/Pitkanen, this team can be more of a puck control team, a style that fits into the coaches hands.

To me it sounds like JR went and got the players needed to fully take advantage of Lavi's style. Guess time will tell this season.

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