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WhalefaninCT

Is it time?

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If Lavi is fired -- we all know how loyal JR is and what a soft-spot he has for his former players (Tanabe, Vasacek, Cullen, etc.) -- whose to say he doesn't have that same sense of loyalty to former coaches??

You heard it, I am saying it here:

Welcome back Paul Maurice, it's been a long time!

:blink:

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This is where I begin to have a problem. When people use the excuse of "injuries and expectations". What team out there right now does not have injuries....now or at any other point in the season? That is the part of the game and part of being PROFESSIONAL HOCKEY PLAYERS. We were able to do this during the '06 season and during the playoffs. Anybody remember when Cole went down and how much of an important piece he was for the team at that time. Didn't return until Game 7....the team seemed to be able to step it up then didn't they? Didn't hear too much rumbling about injuries when we were going on 9-10 game winning streaks a two points during that season either. Guys need to step when one of the boys goes down....unfortunately the only guys on this that seem to have been doing that are the young ones and not the "leaders"----Sutter has been playing his heart out before and after getting his bell rung. Perhaps Staal should go and talk with him and have Sutter help him with his own game.

guess you forgot we got recchi 2 days later. So that argument holds no water what so ever, we dont get to shop for replacements after every injury.

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If Lavi is fired -- we all know how loyal JR is and what a soft-spot he has for his former players (Tanabe, Vasacek, Cullen, etc.) -- whose to say he doesn't have that same sense of loyalty to former coaches??

You heard it, I am saying it here:

Welcome back Paul Maurice, it's been a long time!

:blink:

Grrooooooooaaannnnnnn.....I would rather lose with Lavi.

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Grrooooooooaaannnnnnn.....I would rather lose with Lavi.

i agree, spent way too much time watching his coaching style (Maurice).

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It's 10:15 on Saturday morning and Lav is still coach? I'm surprised he has lasted this long.

look for the results at 10:15 sunday night after the bolts game....u should get an answer then. :unsure:

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I said this at canescountry and I'll say it here...

For the players we have on paper, there is no excuse for our gameplaying.

My take on what needs to get the job done...

Fire Lavi. Fire McCarthy.

Promote Rowe-Head Coach.

Move Francis in as Associate Head Coach for the forwards, find a new one at a later date.

Move Wesley in as Assistant Coach for the defense and keep him there if he does a good job.

Make Staal a healthy scratch (I'm tired of defending him now) and send a message to him, the team and the NHL, that we don't play roulette (word replacement), we play hockey.

Systematically bench one player at a time that does not put in effort, does not produce, makes stupid mistakes consistantly.

Tell Ward you play the next game for every game you win, if you lose...

Put Leighton in if Ward screws up and tell Leighton you play the next game for every game you win, if you lose...Tell Ward...

Problems solved.

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I said this at canescountry and I'll say it here...

For the players we have on paper, there is no excuse for our gameplaying.

My take on what needs to get the job done...

Fire Lavi. Fire McCarthy.

Promote Rowe-Head Coach.

Move Francis in as Associate Head Coach for the forwards, find a new one at a later date.

Move Wesley in as Assistant Coach for the defense and keep him there if he does a good job.

Make Staal a healthy scratch (I'm tired of defending him now) and send a message to him, the team and the NHL, that we don't play roulette (word replacement), we play hockey.

Systematically bench one player at a time that does not put in effort, does not produce, makes stupid mistakes consistantly.

Tell Ward you play the next game for every game you win, if you lose...

Put Leighton in if Ward screws up and tell Leighton you play the next game for every game you win, if you lose...Tell Ward...

Problems solved.

i agree with all but Rowe but am willing to give it a shot. McCarthy should have been gone when Maurice was canned. He seems to be the common thread between Maurice teams and Lavi teams. I can only assume that in '06 McCarthy didn't have time to screw things up but has made up for it since.

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The Canes will not go outside the organization for Laviolette's repalcement. It'll be Rowe...and I wouldn't be surprised to see Wesley and Francis next to him on the bench as suggested earlier. I think the firing of Melrose bought Laviolette a little more time.....I was shocked he did not get axed this morning. You never wish a firing upon anybody, but its time to move on. Laviolette has lost this team, in a bad way.

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I do think its time for Lavi to move on but I dont want just anybody taking his place. Stay away from Barry Melrose, Paul Maurice, and Torts plz JR.

And i really dont know if Rowe is the answer. It was always pointed out how in training camp Rowe would meet multiple times with Lavi to learn the system so that he may teach his players the system in Albany so when they are called up they can fit right in. Its basically the same guy.

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Man, on this board you lose 3 games and you're done. I agree that this team has looked horrible the last few games. I agree that the coach's seat should be getting fairly warm. But fire him now? I'm not down with that. I would give him a few more games to turn it around. We have a home-stretch of game-off-game-off-off-game-off-game. If we continue to look as bad as we are now through the next 4 games, then I'm on board. Not before.

Here's the exception. I think that Staal and Brind'Amour have on the whole been very subpar. These are the guys that need to be strong on the center of our top 2 lines. I think both are injury related. BUT if any of their lack of productivity is related to the coach, then that seat should be red hot. We have no way of knowing this, but JR does.

If Staal and Brind'Amour's problems are injury related, then only part of the current record can be placed on the coach, and he should get at least a few more games to show that he can straighten it out.

I know we have Pitkanen and Cullen and Sutter back, but they have only played two games and are not at peak form (especially Pitkanen), and Walker is playing with a cast, and Samsonov is MIA like his history suggests, and I really think Staal and Brindy are not 100% physically, and Eaves has been down and barely productive, what coach could win with that?

Now the idea that Lavi may have thrown in the towel is interesting. That is possible, he has given up. Given the way the team has treated him since last year, it may be over from his point of view. If so, the next few games will suck out loud and a change will be made. In that case they will go with Tom Rowe. Just not quite yet.

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i feel that lavi doesn't have much longer. i don't see him lasting past mid-late december unless this team turns it around. .500 play isnt going to cut it. this isn't a comment on whether i think he should or should not be fired. it's just what i predict. he may get the axe by the end of this month when you consider the importance of this stretch of games coming up. 11 out the next 14 games at home. this strectch could make or break our season, because once we get to jan-feb 11 of 16 are road games. so if we fall far back in the standings now, it'll be hard to make it up on the road. IF this team plays poorly and say, drops 3 of the next 4 or so, then perhaps he doesnt make it out of this month.

i'm willing to reserve final judgement until mid-late december, which is when i initially predicted his firing. but, i do think it is time for a change. we are making the same mistakes as last year on defense (bad pinches, bad coverage).....offensively, we cant score, which was always the one thing we could count on in his attacking, agressive forechecking style....now thats gone....powerplay is terrible....and, the players dont seem to be responding...they dont seem motivated.....maybe his message has lost its effectiveness with them....i love lavi...he brought us a cup....that cup is forever......but sometimes a change is needed, and i believe that time has come.

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I said this at canescountry and I'll say it here...

For the players we have on paper, there is no excuse for our gameplaying.

My take on what needs to get the job done...

Fire Lavi. Fire McCarthy.

Promote Rowe-Head Coach.

Move Francis in as Associate Head Coach for the forwards, find a new one at a later date.

Move Wesley in as Assistant Coach for the defense and keep him there if he does a good job.

Make Staal a healthy scratch (I'm tired of defending him now) and send a message to him, the team and the NHL, that we don't play roulette (word replacement), we play hockey.

Systematically bench one player at a time that does not put in effort, does not produce, makes stupid mistakes consistantly.

Tell Ward you play the next game for every game you win, if you lose...

Put Leighton in if Ward screws up and tell Leighton you play the next game for every game you win, if you lose...Tell Ward...

Problems solved.

Problem solved?

That is a sure fire way to loose the team if you already haven't. Punishing players left and right isn't going to fix the team, and punishing goalies who loose is going to kill their confidence. I'm not saying you've got to coddle your players but becoming an overbearing coach is no way to win.

Now if Laviolette has lost the players his days are numbered, but I don't see him getting the ax after three bad games.

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i agree with all but Rowe but am willing to give it a shot. McCarthy should have been gone when Maurice was canned. He seems to be the common thread between Maurice teams and Lavi teams. I can only assume that in '06 McCarthy didn't have time to screw things up but has made up for it since.

It's sad C97 that it has come to this because you and I use to be some of Lavi's biggest defenders. I agree McCarthy should have been moved to Albany or fired long ago with the problems we have had with our defense and he was around in the Maurice days which was unfair to Lavi to have to inherit him.

Just say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to any idea about Maurice coming back!

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Man, on this board you lose 3 games and you're done. I agree that this team has looked horrible the last few games. I agree that the coach's seat should be getting fairly warm. But fire him now? I'm not down with that. I would give him a few more games to turn it around. We have a home-stretch of game-off-game-off-off-game-off-game. If we continue to look as bad as we are now through the next 4 games, then I'm on board. Not before.

Here's the exception. I think that Staal and Brind'Amour have on the whole been very subpar. These are the guys that need to be strong on the center of our top 2 lines. I think both are injury related. BUT if any of their lack of productivity is related to the coach, then that seat should be red hot. We have no way of knowing this, but JR does.

If Staal and Brind'Amour's problems are injury related, then only part of the current record can be placed on the coach, and he should get at least a few more games to show that he can straighten it out.

I know we have Pitkanen and Cullen and Sutter back, but they have only played two games and are not at peak form (especially Pitkanen), and Walker is playing with a cast, and Samsonov is MIA like his history suggests, and I really think Staal and Brindy are not 100% physically, and Eaves has been down and barely productive, what coach could win with that?

Now the idea that Lavi may have thrown in the towel is interesting. That is possible, he has given up. Given the way the team has treated him since last year, it may be over from his point of view. If so, the next few games will suck out loud and a change will be made. In that case they will go with Tom Rowe. Just not quite yet.

it isn't the loses, if we lost those games but skated our butts off then i would be ok but the team plays like they just don't care, like there is no motivation to win and they are just playing for a paycheck. Ideally i would say dump the entire team and start over but in the real world that just isn't practical. So that leaves finding someone that can light a fire if Lavi isn't up for the job.

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I just have one question for everyone though.. what the heck to you expect Rowe to do? He had a very talented team in the AHL last year, including the very best AHL goalie in Micheal Leighton and still found a way to lose the Calder Cup... Do you want another 2002? Push to the finals only to get humiliated by the red wings? Yes I know a deep playoff run makes the team more money but in the end its all for naught.

I am however glad to see all the fair weather fans jumping ship.. means more cheap tickets for me. :)

It is way too early to be firing coaches at this point in the season. Have you looked at the roster for gods sake? It changes on a NIGHTLY basis.. no wonder people are saying we have no chemistry... we dont even have three man line combos that play together every night.. we have a few pairs that have held together, staal/whitney, brindy/samsonov, bayda/larose.. the third guy, or even whole lines are changing. I know injuries are not an "excuse" but obviously they have a big effect on the team as a whole.

Replace Laviolette and expect 3 or 4 more losing seasons.. it wont get any better.. there arent any coachs out there who can win a stanley cup in theier 2nd year, and even what we did in 06 was a lot of luck and we happened to fit into the new rules.. the new rules that they no longer enforce.. the game has gone back to old style boring clutch and grab hockey... the refs and the commisioner dont care anymore...

This team hasnt even had a chance to figure out who the heck they are yet and you wanna throw that into turmoil by firing the coach? Thats just stupid.

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Problem solved?

That is a sure fire way to loose the team if you already haven't. Punishing players left and right isn't going to fix the team, and punishing goalies who loose is going to kill their confidence. I'm not saying you've got to coddle your players but becoming an overbearing coach is no way to win.

Now if Laviolette has lost the players his days are numbered, but I don't see him getting the ax after three bad games.

3 bad games, how about 2 1/2 bad seasons? Any other team or sport he would have already been gone, JR has bent over backwards given him chance after chance to turn this team around. How many players do we have to trade or aquire to see that maybe the coaching is the biggest problem.

These players are NHL players who make big bucks, knock other hungry AHL players from moving up only to play like college hockey players. Yes they need punishing for not giving this team, organization and fans all they got for what their paid. This is what we have to do in our jobs or we're fired, punished and replaced, why should they be any different? The problem with this team and coaching is they will have one good game and some thinks all the problmes are solve and want everything forgotten in the past, and then the same old problmes resurface again and bring everything down again. "3 games ", there is more than 3 games in 2 1/2 seasons.

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I don't think Rowe deserves a head coaching job, and I don't think JR should can Laviolette.... yet.

Prior to this season I would say not at all, but I've been looking closely at the team's style of play and am becoming more and more aggravated with it. I love an up-tempo style of play, but this "puck pursuit" system flat out, ISN'T WORKING! No one is hitting, and I don't think that's a personal choice of the players. Our forwards ALWAYS play the puck and never the man in the corners, taking huge hits to play the puck. Look, I'm not saying that there aren't instances where a player needs to play the puck, but should it really be every single time? I think this a cause of injuries on this team. The team isn't physical, and isn't MEAN enough. No fighting, no retaliation of any sorts.... this is Laviolette. I don't understand why JR brings in enforcers to protect the valuable players if Laviolette is never going to play them.

Don Cherry commented on it after the Sutter hit...

"Peter Laviolette, their coach says they don't want them fighting. They've had more injuries than the German Army. Everybody takes a run at them. I think he gets a broken neck here. (Showing the Cole hit, then they showed Letowski and Cullen) Everybody takes a run at them because they know nothing's going to happen to them and the coach takes on the player or the players take on the coach."

I'm really starting to believe him. Laviolette lost his Isles team, after one great season after he took over. Now I'm not saying Yashin and some of the other Isles players weren't dead wrong...I'm just saying it has happened before...

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Oh and I have to point out... Paul Maurice got 9 years, only 2 of which I would call "good" seasons....so demanding Laviolette be fired is kinda ignorant considering Laviolette's won a cup, and Paul Maurice never won *edit*.

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It's 10:15 on Saturday morning and Lav is still coach? I'm surprised he has lasted this long.
The consensus in my section was Monday, if we lost Friday and Sunday.

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Well, I'll be flamed for this but....maybe he gave up the team too. He wasn't exactly given a vote of confidence at the end of last season and all summer he didn't even know if he had a job to start the season. He had little say over what players came and went and wasn't able to do any team and family bonding exercises that not only proved successful in 06, but has now become the norm for most teams. Add to that, they bring in Tommy Rowe to be his assistant just in case he's in need of some fresh ides on how to run the team. Oh, and they also put Ron Francis on the ice with him for training camp and some team practices to teach the guys what maybe he couldnt.

Not that I think he isn't to blame for some stuff and I certainly don't agree with all he does but it seems he never really had a chance to get a handle on this team to start the season.

Sounds like you and I are sort of on the same page, TSA. I think the thing that has hurt Lavi the most is that he's been forced to have assistants by management and never been able to pick them himself. I've never heard of a pro team that brings in a new head coach but keeps the entire rest of the coaching staff the same. Temporarily, yes, but not long term. When you get a new head coach they bring in assistants who fit with their style. Sometimes they keep assistants that were on the staff before, but it's always their choice, and after evaluating them and either showing them the door or a job. I've never heard of a GM hiring a coach and saying "Congrats. You've got the job. Here, come meet your assistants."

Since JR has made it known that Lavi is on the hotseat, and especially after having called up Rowe to be sitting by for if - let's not kid ourselves here, it's when - Lavi is fired, it's only been a matter of time. The writing has been on the wall about this. You can see it on his face every game this season. He knows it. So why should he try?

It's not bashing Laviolette to say that, either. Honestly, he was never given a proper chance. The real problem is the way JR micromanages the coaching staff. Instead of bringing up Rowe to coach under Lavi, he should have let Lavi take charge and decide what to do with the coaching staff. With Rowe down in Albany, if things hadn't worked out JR could have fired Lavi and called up Rowe to coach the Canes. He didn't need to bring him to Raleigh before that.

The sad thing is will it really matter who the Canes get to replace Lavi when they do, if JR chooses the rest of the coaching staff instead of whoever the new head coach may be?

I don't care if it's Rowe, or Francis, or Wesley, or any combination of them for the coaching staff. So long as whoever they hire is allowed to choose his own staff. Which is how it should have been for Lavi to begin with.

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I just have one question for everyone though.. what the heck to you expect Rowe to do? He had a very talented team in the AHL last year, including the very best AHL goalie in Micheal Leighton and still found a way to lose the Calder Cup... Do you want another 2002? Push to the finals only to get humiliated by the red wings? Yes I know a deep playoff run makes the team more money but in the end its all for naught.

So your saying that if we cant go all the way through the playoffs and win the cup, we shouldnt make the playoffs at all? I sure hope not cause thats pure idiocracy.

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Maybe Laviolette shouldn't be fired right away. If I were JR, I would start dividing the rest of the season into segments (4-5 games each), re-evaluate his work and team results at the end of each segment, and then make my decision. For example, the first segment is the next 4 home games (Tampa Bay, Montreal, Phoenix, Nashville). I would expect a minimum of 6 points from those 4 games or in an alternate situation 5 points coupled with a great effort that was partially canceled by some truly rotten luck or extremely bad officiating costing us that extra 1 point. If the goal is met, I determine the next segment and outline what I expect to be a realistic goal (points and effort wise). This is repeated pretty much until the end of the season, with the coaching change being the consequence of the goals not being met for any of the segments, pretty much.

The other thing is that I don't buy this "oh, if we fire Lavi, we got no one better out there to replace him with" line. I think he is a great coach, but if he's not working out for us any more, then it's time to cut him loose. And yes, we may replace him with someone who may not be nearly as good of a coach as he is on paper, but who cares about that if that new coach can fire up the team and make them play better.

Again, I say if we make the coaching change, give Rowe a chance and see what can he do. We have nothing to lose, and I mean it. Because when the rose colored glasses are removed, and we realize how many games in hand we have, we come to a recognition that we wouldn't be making the playoffs if every team made up the games in their schedule to take it to a total of 17 games, and the season ended just then.

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guess you forgot we got recchi 2 days later. So that argument holds no water what so ever, we dont get to shop for replacements after every injury.

Perhaps I should clarify for you. I did not say that after every single freaking injury, we go out shopping. Didn't say anything like that. That logic would be ridiculous and unrealistic. My point is, incase you missed it, is that our "leaders" and veteran players (Staal, Samsonov, and Brindy to some extent) have not stepped up AT ALL. It is a lot of the younger guys that are showing heart for this heart...I would toss Ruutu into that category as well. So, if some of the guys that haven't stepped up thus yet continue to do so, then we make a move. Samsonov, what does he have---3 assists in 16 or 17 games? That's not gonna work.

2006 we were planning for a run and was a big reason we went and got Recchi and Weight and the team didn't miss a bit. However, this year we can't even play together with who we have. We let a guy clear the zone last night by kicking the puck not once, not twice, but 3 times without anybody touching him. Because of these things, I believe there must be a change.

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