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remkin

Our Top 2 Centers: As they go, we go.

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IMO something has soured the locker room, thought it was Belanger a season or two back but he is long gone. Not really sure if it is a player or two or the coach. I for one have thought that McCarthy should have been gone a long time ago, he is a hold over from the Coach Mo dump and chase days plus given he is the defensive coach and we have always suffered there then a light should be coming on somewhere. On paper we have what should be a top 5 team but in the standings we are slowly becoming bottom feeders.

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Remkin has hit the nail on the head and if its painfully obvious to many of us fans, how could it not be effecting the locker room and how they view the leadership. Sometimes leading by example isnt always played out on the ice.;)

Edit/disclaimer: Im not in the trade Brind'Amour camp. Remkin edited his title after I posted this.

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I think Roddy will get it going. Even with his super human conditioning I think it still takes awhile to get your game back after a major injury with significant time away from the ice. I think his minutes should be reduced-not to punish him but to possibly improve his play. Maybe Staals minutes need to be cut as well especially if he is playing through an injury. He is double shifted alot. Maybe Lavi needs to scale back on that. We just need to clone Ruutu as IMO he has been our best and most consistent player.

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+/- can be misleading. Listening to a recent game on the radio, and assuming (cause I couldnt' see) that our 3 forwards were down ice while our 2 defensemen were bringing the puck up from our end. I think Rod was on the ice at the time.

"Babchuk D-to-D pass to Melichar. Melichar attempts a pass up the middle - it's stolen! SomeOtherGuyOnTheOtherTeam is away - he shoots, he scores!"

Rod gets a -1 for that. And WHY? Because he HAPPENED to be on the ice at the time.

Let's find some "Quality +/- stat" we can compare. Were you involved in the play that led to a goal, either via your own turnover, your own missed pass, your penalty! (imagine that - a guy goes to the sin bin and we give up a goal - does his +/- go up?), or on defense, if you're in a defensive set-up and they score, or if you lose a face-off and they score before the puck leaves your end, etc...

But plain vanilla +/- is lame, in my opinion, and needs to be re-architected.

I think Roddy will get it going. Even with his super human conditioning I think it still takes awhile to get your game back after a major injury with significant time away from the ice. I think his minutes should be reduced-not to punish him but to possibly improve his play. Maybe Staals minutes need to be cut as well especially if he is playing through an injury. He is double shifted alot. Maybe Lavi needs to scale back on that. We just need to clone Ruutu as IMO he has been our best and most consistent player.

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+/- can be misleading. Listening to a recent game on the radio, and assuming (cause I couldnt' see) that our 3 forwards were down ice while our 2 defensemen were bringing the puck up from our end. I think Rod was on the ice at the time.

"Babchuk D-to-D pass to Melichar. Melichar attempts a pass up the middle - it's stolen! SomeOtherGuyOnTheOtherTeam is away - he shoots, he scores!"

Rod gets a -1 for that. And WHY? Because he HAPPENED to be on the ice at the time.

Let's find some "Quality +/- stat" we can compare. Were you involved in the play that led to a goal, either via your own turnover, your own missed pass, your penalty! (imagine that - a guy goes to the sin bin and we give up a goal - does his +/- go up?), or on defense, if you're in a defensive set-up and they score, or if you lose a face-off and they score before the puck leaves your end, etc...

But plain vanilla +/- is lame, in my opinion, and needs to be re-architected.

Good points and yes Melichar and Babchuck together were not good but I was there, and Rod did not have a good game. Many times he gets challenged by the opposition and instead of fighting it out, he passes off the puck. Problem with that is, its not directed at anyone in particular and because he's often covered so well, its the opposing team that it goes right to. Over half the time that leads to a break away for the other team.

For the goal you described, I would have definately put the ownest on the d for that but in many cases, some forwards are standing around watching it happen.

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I know this may be a very non-scientific way of looking at the problem, but my buddy and I listened to the game on the radio yesterday. Charlie asked me after the game if Staal even played. We got to thinking about it and it's hard to remember Chuck K. even mentioning him. Almost the same thing with Brindy. These guys have to stop being invisible if this team is going to win.

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+/- can be misleading. Listening to a recent game on the radio, and assuming (cause I couldnt' see) that our 3 forwards were down ice while our 2 defensemen were bringing the puck up from our end. I think Rod was on the ice at the time.

"Babchuk D-to-D pass to Melichar. Melichar attempts a pass up the middle - it's stolen! SomeOtherGuyOnTheOtherTeam is away - he shoots, he scores!"

Rod gets a -1 for that. And WHY? Because he HAPPENED to be on the ice at the time.

Let's find some "Quality +/- stat" we can compare. Were you involved in the play that led to a goal, either via your own turnover, your own missed pass, your penalty! (imagine that - a guy goes to the sin bin and we give up a goal - does his +/- go up?), or on defense, if you're in a defensive set-up and they score, or if you lose a face-off and they score before the puck leaves your end, etc...

But plain vanilla +/- is lame, in my opinion, and needs to be re-architected.

I agree that +/- is a vague stat. It can be misleading, particularly over short periods, or within fairly wide ranges. But over fairly long stretches and in extremes it is telling us something. The guy who has two Selke trophy's for being THE best defensive forward in the league has THE worst +/- of all active players, including defensemen.

Watching Rod on the ice this is my conclusion. He is still smart, and thinks the game brilliantly, and as long as he is relatively stationary he is effective (face offs, planted near the net on face offs), but when he has to move or skate or battle along the boards, his effectiveness drops way off. He is losing those battles (other than face offs) at an alarming rate.

One could blame the knee. No doubt that isnt' helping. But the fact is that Rod, and this team by extension were playing poorly last year before his injury. In fact, after he went down the team looked like a different team.

Rod Brind'Amour is a probable Hall of Famer and has been the heart and soul of this team. And even a 90% Brind'Amour would help this team. But he is more like 70% and that is hurting. He is a net negative, negative 18 actually.

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Remkin, good post. My comments:

1. Last year it was a possible "ankle" with Rod, before he finally went down. He hasn't produced in a year. He's a Hall of Famer and beloved by all Canes fans, but a more limited role is required.

2. I believe that our "Tradition" (loyalty, seasoned vet) is holding the club back with Rod in such a key role (TOI, etc.). Staal needs to be the guy, without deferring to the other guy with a "C" on his Jersey. I think he'll step up as he did last year, but will underachieve in his current "role" as second fiddle.

It's possible that the remainder of the team just doesn't buy into the dump/chase system, and have stopped responding to Coaches. I've seen too many times where they dumped it in when obviously carrying the puck was the better play. If they're "following the system" and being good team players, they'll still dump/chase. However, they appear to be non-believers.

Not believing in your chances or system as an athlete is the kiss of death - regardless of the sport.

A present, we see insanity. The repeating of the same behavior with the expectation of a different result.

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O.K. I was kind of hoping to get more discussion. So let me lay this on you.

Nearly everyone feels that something needs to change. Logically that would either be changing the coach or perhaps changing key players. Many, quite reasonably want to dump the coach. And that may end up happening sooner than we think. But unless Staal and Brindy are playing poorly because of tension with the coach, in which case the coach must go, then the problem is not the coach, but Staal and Brind'Amour.

If that is the case, the question was what can we do? We clearly aren't trading Staal. But Brind'Amour? Yes, the man has been everything for this team for a long time, but his play is sucking the life blood from the team really since last year. It does not bring me any pleasure to write that. He has been an outstanding leader and player for many years. But it is true.

Thus I propose that we trade Brind'Amour. I am donning my flame resistant suit as I continue.

I don't think we would get much for him due to his contract, and sad as it may seem, it would probably be best for the team if he retired. But sadly, it has gotten to the point that just clearing the space would be worth doing. Perhaps a young team looking for leadership. Perhaps we need to sweeten the deal. Ideally, if we could get a servicable second line center who could at least be a set up guy, it would be best. But if we could even get a third line center, we could move Cullen up.

To be honest, we would be better off right now if we even got a 2nd or third line winger. We could move Cullen and Sutter up, and call up Heimelman.

If we did this, we could have the response we got at the end of last year. If for some perverse reason Brind'Amour is psychologically holding Staal back...I have no evidence of that, and it seems weird, but Staal came alive last year after Brindy went down.

It saddens me, but the fact is, that even a new coach won't bring back the old Brind'Amour. And if he continues playing as he is now, the team will look exactly like it did the last two years.

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O.K. I was kind of hoping to get more discussion. So let me lay this on you.

Nearly everyone feels that something needs to change. Logically that would either be changing the coach or perhaps changing key players. Many, quite reasonably want to dump the coach. And that may end up happening sooner than we think. But unless Staal and Brindy are playing poorly because of tension with the coach, in which case the coach must go, then the problem is not the coach, but Staal and Brind'Amour.

If that is the case, the question was what can we do? We clearly aren't trading Staal. But Brind'Amour? Yes, the man has been everything for this team for a long time, but his play is sucking the life blood from the team really since last year. It does not bring me any pleasure to write that. He has been an outstanding leader and player for many years. But it is true.

Thus I propose that we trade Brind'Amour. I am donning my flame resistant suit as I continue.

I don't think we would get much for him due to his contract, and sad as it may seem, it would probably be best for the team if he retired. But sadly, it has gotten to the point that just clearing the space would be worth doing. Perhaps a young team looking for leadership. Perhaps we need to sweeten the deal. Ideally, if we could get a servicable second line center who could at least be a set up guy, it would be best. But if we could even get a third line center, we could move Cullen up.

To be honest, we would be better off right now if we even got a 2nd or third line winger. We could move Cullen and Sutter up, and call up Heimelman.

If we did this, we could have the response we got at the end of last year. If for some perverse reason Brind'Amour is psychologically holding Staal back...I have no evidence of that, and it seems weird, but Staal came alive last year after Brindy went down.

It saddens me, but the fact is, that even a new coach won't bring back the old Brind'Amour. And if he continues playing as he is now, the team will look exactly like it did the last two years.

I agree, this would force Staal to grow a set and lead the team.

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The problem as I see it, remkin, is something you alluded to in your first post: Brindy has little to nothing left in the tank, which translates to little or no trade value. Besides that, while I agree that we need to turn the page on his era, I'd like to see a transition which is good for the organization. Brindy's value to this team as a player may be waning, but as a coach he could probably be here for a long time (whoa, whoa, everybody, I'm not saying he should have Lavi's job -- yet).

So I'll repeat something I said on the "Is it time" thread: If your fortunes are going to rise and fall depending on the performances of your "lion in winter" and "lion in spring" as you suggest (and clearly they do), then it's time to do something to wake those guys up. I think a good start would be to bench the both of them, right now, against the Pens. The fact that Staal still can't win a face-off despite being on the same team with one of the league's all-time face-off leaders tells me all I need to know about their relationship. For the future of the organization, they need to get past that and work together, and a few splinters might give them something in common.

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While +/- can be a misleading statistic, over long periods of time it is one of the best statistics for comparing players within and individual team. Although you can find clip after clip of the other team scoring goals down low while Roddy is covering the point men (or wrapped up with another player in the slot), rewind a little bit more and 90% of the time you will find a battle along the half-wall that Brindy lost, or an attempt at gaining the blue line that ended in miserable failure.

A lot of people claim that +/- is not important for a forward. Then, they point at the D-men and blame them for Roddy's +/-. When asked about Roddy's lack of self-made scoring opportunities, they eloquently point out that he is a defensive-minded center, and therefore, it is not his responsibility to set up scoring chances. Frankly, I could care less whether Roddy is a goal-scoring maniac, or the equivalent of having a third D-man; provided he is one or the other. And whether he's cutting through the other teams defense to stuff one past their goaltender, or backchecking like crazy to prevent goals from going the other way, every goal he saves and every goal he scores would add to his +/-. Yes, there are many undeserved -'s for forwards, but their are also undeserved +'s.

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+/- can be misleading. Listening to a recent game on the radio, and assuming (cause I couldnt' see) that our 3 forwards were down ice while our 2 defensemen were bringing the puck up from our end. I think Rod was on the ice at the time.

"Babchuk D-to-D pass to Melichar. Melichar attempts a pass up the middle - it's stolen! SomeOtherGuyOnTheOtherTeam is away - he shoots, he scores!"

Rod gets a -1 for that. And WHY? Because he HAPPENED to be on the ice at the time.

Let's find some "Quality +/- stat" we can compare. Were you involved in the play that led to a goal, either via your own turnover, your own missed pass, your penalty! (imagine that - a guy goes to the sin bin and we give up a goal - does his +/- go up?), or on defense, if you're in a defensive set-up and they score, or if you lose a face-off and they score before the puck leaves your end, etc...

But plain vanilla +/- is lame, in my opinion, and needs to be re-architected.

You sound like Brind'Amour. As his excuse for his horrid +/- is that he just so happens to step on the ice when the other team scores. I call BS on his response and yours. I've seen way too many times, Brind'Amour turning the puck over, especially at center ice. He is just as responsible for his horrid +/- as the other guys out on the ice with him.

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I've seen way too many times, Brind'Amour turning the puck over, especially at center ice.

Not to mention his painfully slow speed. He has no acceleration this year. Watch how long it takes him to change direction when the puck moves the other direction. He cannot keep up. He eventually gets up to the approximate speed of others, but he is so slow to accelerate. Can't play defense or offense when you are lagging behind.

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You sound like Brind'Amour. As his excuse for his horrid +/- is that he just so happens to step on the ice when the other team scores. I call BS on his response and yours. I've seen way too many times, Brind'Amour turning the puck over, especially at center ice. He is just as responsible for his horrid +/- as the other guys out on the ice with him.

He sure has been giving up the puck at the blue line or center ice way too often. Late in 06-07, Brindy made what was practically a handoff to Atlanta on a misplayed pass in a 1-1 tie game at the time. Atlanta scored on the ensuing rush to take the lead, and Carolina couldn't get the equalizer. Feb 20, 2007. But Brindy also opened the scoring that night, giving Carolina the 1-0 lead they failed to hold. I remember being so angry at his blueline miscue.

This year, I noted on another board his weak game against Los Angeles: One shot on goal, 4 giveaways, 0 takeaways. I don't know where to find giveaways and takeaways cumulated on NHL.com, but that could be a more interesting statistic for forwards than +/-, kind of like turnover margin in NCAA football. It's my impression that this year he seems to be less effective on takeaways, and more generous on giveaways, than was his norm. He definitely seems to be a stride slow and caught out of position more frequently than before.

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I can't see many teams being interested in rod cause of his contract...its pretty long, and it isn't cheap.

I think j.r.'s biggest mistake after the Cup run was giving him that 5-year deal, maybe he was a bit too overzealous cause of the Cup win but don't sign a guy past his 40's in the NHL, its really risky if he retires cause part of the salary counts against your cap.

Staal is struggling, but base don what he's done on past years you gotta keep him, and obviously he needs some type of elite winger, he's no crosby, he won't make players around him better, he needs a winger that can help him be better.

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If the players have given up on Laviolette's style of play, how do you explain the run late last season that almost landed this team in the playoffs? It was the same style of play at that time, it was just that the older players were out of the way on the ice and in the locker room and players like Gleason, Staal, and Ward were able to step up and become the unquestioned leaders of the team. I think that is what is needed now. It's time for the old guard to step away and let the new guard take complete control of this hockey team. It's time to purge the roster of players like Brind'Amour and Whitney.

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IMO something has soured the locker room, thought it was Belanger a season or two back but he is long gone. Not really sure if it is a player or two or the coach. I for one have thought that McCarthy should have been gone a long time ago, he is a hold over from the Coach Mo dump and chase days plus given he is the defensive coach and we have always suffered there then a light should be coming on somewhere. On paper we have what should be a top 5 team but in the standings we are slowly becoming bottom feeders.

I would say some of this blame can be placed on Rutherford as he has assembled, outside of Gleason and Pitkanen, one of the softest defenses in the NHL. Outside of the two previously mentioned players, everyone else on this team's defense would struggle finding a spot on the roster of most NHL teams.

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If the players have given up on Laviolette's style of play, how do you explain the run late last season that almost landed this team in the playoffs? It was the same style of play at that time, it was just that the older players were out of the way on the ice and in the locker room and players like Gleason, Staal, and Ward were able to step up and become the unquestioned leaders of the team. I think that is what is needed now. It's time for the old guard to step away and let the new guard take complete control of this hockey team. It's time to purge the roster of players like Brind'Amour and Whitney.

Two words, River Rats, IMO. They played with the passion and determination that is so desperately needed right now. I do agree with you that Staal did step up his play when Brindy went out, and he needs to do that again now.

I'm all for doing to Brind'Amour what Dallas did to Modano. They took the C from him and gave it to Morrow since Morrow was the new face of the Stars. I see no problem in taking that C away from Brindy and giving it to Staal. I know most won't agree with me on this, but maybe giving him that C to wear will motivate him in a big way.

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You think fans complain about the team and Laviolette now, imagine what would happen if you brought in the River Rats playing against NHL guys.

Listen folks, you can't just drop players down to the minors. There are rules about it. If a player meets certain requirments and you want to drop him down to the minors to bring up the River Rats, they have to go on waivers first. Let's see, would a team pick up a Cullen or a Whitney or a Staal or a Brindy. Um, yes....in a heartbeat.

They aren't gonna take the C away from him. We have no idea what goes on when the doors are closed. Roddy could be going the best he has ever done as a captain. The notion of taking the C away makes me chuckle. The C is not about his play or the teams play, its about leadership.

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Look at last year. Everyone knows Staal stepped up his game after Brindy's knee went out on Feb. 14. In the 23 games beginning that night and running to the end of the year, Staal had 12 games with two or more points. Carolina lost only 6 (i.e, 1/4) of those 23 games. In the previous 42 games (game 18 through game 59) he had 4 games with two or more points. The Canes lost 23 (i.e. more than half) of those 42 games.

When Staal was not contributing two points a game (goals or assists), the Canes lost with almost twice the frequency as when he was contributing.

How does that compare to this season? Before his injury became apparent, he had two multi-point games in Carolin's first five played: result Carolina 3 wins, 1 loss. 1 SO loss.

Since then, he has had two multi-point games in the next 20 games, and Carolina won both. Overall record in those twenty games: Carolina 9 wins, 10 losses, 1 SO loss.

Strikingly, again this year the team loses more than half the games played in stretches when Staal consistently fails to contribute two points a night.

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I'll say it here too since I said it in the rumors thread: we are not trading Brind'Amour. At least not unless he asks or agrees to be traded. He has a NTC on that long, expensive contract of his. It runs through 2011, and IMO, he intends to retire here. If the team asked him to waive the NTC, he would probably just retire. Read: buys us nothing. If he asks to be traded, well, that says your captain has given up on the team now doesn't it? Not a pretty story.

I don't disagree that Brindy is not playing well. I don't think you'd get an argument from him about that either. But trading him as the answer? It's not going to happen, so let's move on, ok?

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He has a NTC on that long, expensive contract of his.

Do you have a link to prove that? I haven't read anywhere that he does have a no-trade-clause. I believe he had one on his previous contract here, but I haven't seen it written anywhere that he had one on his latest contract.

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