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carcanes67

Are we losing money, by not spending money?

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IIRC, PK has stated that in order for this team to make a profit, it'd have to go deep into the playoffs. Which, IMO, is the ECF at the minimum.

Now, assuming any of those players are available (which, I can guarantee you, many of them won't be come FA time), none of them are that much of an upgrade over what we have now. Certainly not enough to make the jump from an on-the-bubble playoff team to a Cup contender.

So, again IMO, I don't think it'd be in the best interest to spend that additional 6 mill as it's highly unlikely that the player acquired with that 6 mill would get us deep enough into the playoffs to justify it.

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How would we add most of those players without giving up major parts of the team? You don't just call Nashville and say "we want Shea Weber, here's Chad LaRose in return."

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It is a very good question, I was wondering the same thing when Vancouver and New York, where looking at Mats Sundin. If the Hurricanes got someone like that, 2 things would happen. It would spark and create interest,more seats sold, and then possibly and hopefully add more wins. They go hand in hand. More wins equates to more interest, and then that adds to more seats sold, and more revenue. Then making the playoffs, adds more revenue, more excitement, bigger fan base. Then hopefully a profitable organization. It comes back to the old saying "It takes money to make money" I think you can be tight and then it cost you in the long run. Other than that we just need to play all out intense hockey for 60 minutes and hope the puck goes into the opposing net more than ours :)

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How would we add most of those players without giving up major parts of the team? You don't just call Nashville and say "we want Shea Weber, here's Chad LaRose in return."

I understand that - if you actually take the time to read my post you will see I added this in the original post of the thread.

"I know, adding players such as the ones listed above would be nearly impossible during the season, but players of their caliber are available during the free agent period for the same price, the listed players are just "examples" of possibilities."

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I understand that - if you actually take the time to read my post you will see I added this in the original post of the thread.

"I know, adding players such as the ones listed above would be nearly impossible during the season, but players of their caliber are available during the free agent period for the same price, the listed players are just "examples" of possibilities."

Young top-pairing defensemen like Weber typically are not available during the free agent period. Most of the players you listed were re-signed as RFAs, not signed as UFAs, and thus would be significantly more expensive if they were on the open market. Most of the players that hit the UFA market are second-tier talents who get massively overpaid. Would these team be significantly better had they spent $4.5M/yr on Ryan Malone or $3M/yr on Radim Vrbata?

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The team is likely in a situation of being pennywise and pound foolish. It is a testament to the players that the team garners as many points as they do. Unfortunately, as we've seen those points still only land them in mediocrity just outside of the playoffs, so no playoffs and no high quality draft picks. If this is the long term status for the team, it will continue to be frustrating to fans, players, and management. And, this position is bad for profitability because some spending is there for the vets, but the playoff revenue does materialize because the team is subpar without being awful. The Canes will not be able to compete with the Bostons, Caps, Pens, Wings, Sharks, etc. to go "deep into the playoffs" without definitive changes to either improve the team or get higher positioned in the draft.

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When "this team" gets lumped together with Lavi's team of the last two years, I shrug and move on to another post.

Playing fantasy GM must be fun, so many do it here on the boards, but Fantasy GM is just what it is. "Let's get rid of this guy and plug in another player with slightly better stats. Do this enough and we'll have enough points to win the Cup. Fantasy GM, what a game."

Pitkanen for Cole was easy to understand in the lockerroom EVEN IF it wasn't a popular idea. Trade Walker, Roddy, Samsonov, Kaberle, Wallin, (Take Wallin out, I forgot he's All Star material now) Rosie, Staal, the trainer, the equipment manager and the GM. We can pick up a couple of first pair of shut-down Dmen. a power forward, a second and third line center to replace Roddy and Cullen and we should be all set -- after they get to know what team they are own.

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Ive Always thought this. We need a local Billionaire or group to buy this team and spend on it. Karmanos is the reason we have missed the playoffs the past two years and probably will miss this year.

If we could spend to the cap, we could acquire another superstar to compliment Staal. Think of what this team would be with financial stability under JR`s genius.

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Ive Always thought this. We need a local Billionaire or group to buy this team and spend on it. Karmanos is the reason we have missed the playoffs the past two years and probably will miss this year.

If we could spend to the cap, we could acquire another superstar to compliment Staal. Think of what this team would be with financial stability under JR`s genius.

The problem with this theory is it applies to all teams and all teams can't win the cup every year.

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When "this team" gets lumped together with Lavi's team of the last two years, I shrug and move on to another post.

Playing fantasy GM must be fun, so many do it here on the boards, but Fantasy GM is just what it is. "Let's get rid of this guy and plug in another player with slightly better stats. Do this enough and we'll have enough points to win the Cup. Fantasy GM, what a game."

Pitkanen for Cole was easy to understand in the lockerroom EVEN IF it wasn't a popular idea. Trade Walker, Roddy, Samsonov, Kaberle, Wallin, (Take Wallin out, I forgot he's All Star material now) Rosie, Staal, the trainer, the equipment manager and the GM. We can pick up a couple of first pair of shut-down Dmen. a power forward, a second and third line center to replace Roddy and Cullen and we should be all set -- after they get to know what team they are own.

Are you satisfied with the team that is being put on the ice now? If you are not, what are your ideas for improvement? It is easy to deride others as fantasy GMs, but more difficult to actually consider what is going to make this team competitive again. I am not satisfied with the present team and believe that changes are necessary for the team to improve. Small moves like what JR typically makes have led this team to the status they are in. A big move at the player level can help to energize the team and improve team talent level. This year could be an interesting time to be a "buyer" because a number of teams are interested in reducing salary. So, the Canes might get more value for the expenditure due to the economy. If not this approach, then I'd rather see rebuilding mode than the inconsistency and not making the playoffs that we are witnessing. I do not expect the team to win the Cup with regularity. However, I do expect them to be able to make the playoffs more often than not and the current team is not a team that is going to accomplish that.

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Samsonov - Staal - Ruutu

Whitney - Brind'Amour - Walker

Eaves - Cullen - Williams

Bayda -> Michalek? - Sutter - LaRose

Gleason - Corvo

Pitkanen - Seidenburg

Kaberle - Babchuk -> Rivet?

Ward

Leighton -> Hedberg?

While I like the thought process, I think I should point out that LaRose, Ruutu, and Seidenberg will be free agents this offseason and will need to be re-signed before any additional moves are made. Those three moves alone could increase the team salary by $3 or $4 million, so the team will remain limited in their possibilities unless a major move is made to clear salary. Personally, I'd love to see it happen as I believe that is the only way there will be a significant change in this team's performance.

I would also say the Michalek would be on the second-line or third-line, at worst, if he were to be acquired.

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The team is likely in a situation of being pennywise and pound foolish.

Are you serious ? Get real !!!

There is no pound foolish here. Their salary is close to $50M with salary cap of $56M. They are spending as much and even more than many teams. The cap is most likely going down in 2010 and these teams will struggle to get under. Raleigh and the Canes can not accept a $57M payroll today. No matter how many people say "spend more money".

I wish the same people who say this woud go buy 4 Lexus box seats every game. You saw what happened last year when they raised prices. So many people complained. They raised parking and so many people complained. Yet some bozos want them to spend to the cap. Please, look at your own finances and compare.

I want the team to stay long term and if they set a self imposed cap, good for them because that means they are not being run by fools. Just go look at Tampa Bay for an example.

I saw through the bottom dwelling years here and that is the reason we go Eric Staal but I rather win more gamest than aim for the bottom. The Pens got so good because they dwelled at the bottom for years and came close to loosing their team.

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Ive Always thought this. We need a local Billionaire or group to buy this team and spend on it. Karmanos is the reason we have missed the playoffs the past two years and probably will miss this year.

If we could spend to the cap, we could acquire another superstar to compliment Staal. Think of what this team would be with financial stability under JR`s genius.

Oh jeeezzzzzz. Man o Man...I have read it all now.

D you think a local billionaire would care about hockey and not money? Do you think Goodnight would raise the team payroll to loose even more money? No way. If that was the case, Midway airlines would still be here and Preston would be discounted to live in.

PK is the reason the team is here and stayed here. Any other owner would have bailed 7 years ago. Or maybe back then you had no idea who the canes were ?? He is not the reason the canes are where they are. I said it before and I will say it again. Not sure where your seats are or if you even come to games but start buying 4 Lexus box seats every game. What? Can not afford them ? The same as Raleigh affording a hockey team at the cap level.

Go out and buy a $150K Benz? What, the car you have now is nice and you could not afford that anyway? That is life and not some fantasy dream of spending other peoples money.

Could it improve if they won 40 games of the next 50? Maybe, but who says a SuperStar will help? Who is to say people will come?

When you do buy those Lexus Box seats, invite me up and I will spend the time with you on team costs, revenues and expenses. Can't wait so I can enjoy on your $$. BTW, I got plenty of friends who don't like to pay either. They are complaining about their seats anyway !!!!!

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Ive Always thought this. We need a local Billionaire or group to buy this team and spend on it. Karmanos is the reason we have missed the playoffs the past two years and probably will miss this year.

If we could spend to the cap, we could acquire another superstar to compliment Staal. Think of what this team would be with financial stability under JR`s genius.

It doesn't work that way, local billionaire doesn't equal financial stability. It is simple economics, if you only take in $50mil in revenue then you can only spend up to the $50mil you take in. Billionaires don't become billionaires because they buy businesses with the thought of losing money.

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Ive Always thought this. We need a local Billionaire or group to buy this team and spend on it. Karmanos is the reason we have missed the playoffs the past two years and probably will miss this year.

If we could spend to the cap, we could acquire another superstar to compliment Staal. Think of what this team would be with financial stability under JR`s genius.

This is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read. Do you want the Hurricanes to end up like Tampa Bay?

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Are you serious ? Get real !!!

There is no pound foolish here. Their salary is close to $50M with salary cap of $56M. They are spending as much and even more than many teams. The cap is most likely going down in 2010 and these teams will struggle to get under. Raleigh and the Canes can not accept a $57M payroll today. No matter how many people say "spend more money".

I wish the same people who say this woud go buy 4 Lexus box seats every game. You saw what happened last year when they raised prices. So many people complained. They raised parking and so many people complained. Yet some bozos want them to spend to the cap. Please, look at your own finances and compare.

I want the team to stay long term and if they set a self imposed cap, good for them because that means they are not being run by fools. Just go look at Tampa Bay for an example.

I saw through the bottom dwelling years here and that is the reason we go Eric Staal but I rather win more gamest than aim for the bottom. The Pens got so good because they dwelled at the bottom for years and came close to loosing their team.

First, there is no need for name calling. I could just as easily ask why some "bozos" would want to pay to watch a training partner for teams that will be playing when there is actually something to be won (the playoffs) year in and year out. To me, that is a waste of money.

Second, the Canes have never seen a sustained winner. The Canes have been to the playoffs 4 times in 10 years, 3 in 7 played seasons since the move to Raleigh. What would attendance, STH sales, revenues, etc. be if the team was a perrenial winner going to the playoffs 5 or 6 of the last 7 seasons? We cannot be certain. And likely, we won't know without spending more money which brings me to point 3.

Third, I looked up cap spending on nhlnumbers.com, the Canes have a cap hit of $50.5 mil. Here are the teams that spend less than the Canes:

Atlanta - $47.6

Buffalo - $50.2

Columbus - $49.3

LA - $45.2

Nashville - $44.8

NYI - $48.8

Phoenix - $46.5

Tampa - $50.3

Toronto - $47.5

What do all of these teams have in common? It is a huge surprise if the team makes the playoffs. (I have pulled Vancouver out of the list due to the addition of Sundin. They were at $49.2 before his addition.)

Other teams below $55 mil: Edmonton, Florida, Minnesota, and Ottawa. Again, not exactly perrenial powerhouses. That leaves 16 teams spending over $55 (including Vancouver now). As of writing this, only 3 teams spending less than $55 mil are in playoff positions and those spots are 8th in the East and 7th and 8th in the West...nipping at the heels of the playoffs and not exactly secure. (And, only 3 teams that spend over $55 are not presently in playoff position.) Does this mean that the Canes play well for the money spent? YES. Does that suggest sound hockey management? YES.

So, the question ultimately is one of balancing area economics with putting together a competitive team. If the Canes would spend 10% more ($5 mil. - wisely - as they manage now), putting them into the 13/16 playoff ratio - make the playoffs an expectation, and raise ticket prices 10 to 15% (in line with other teams and the added expenditure) would I continue to attend? YES. What would happen is some people would complain, but would continue to spend equal dollars for fewer games. Would enough fans either spend more than now and/or would new fans be drawn in if the team was regularly in the playoffs to make up the difference? That we do not know, but we do know that winning would drive interest and playoffs bring added revenue. What will lose interest and ultimately revenues is having a continuously mediocre team. Which is point 4.

Fourth, the cycle of mediocrity is the worst scenario IMO. I would rather see the team A. spend and see if the fans/area respond. If the fans do respond, then we have ourselves a whole lot of fun. If the area does not respond, then the team can move for economic reasons and the fans have no one to blame but ourselves. This is also best for the players, they deserve the chance to play for a winner. Or, scenario B. go through what the Pens went through so we can get serious prospects and watch a young team gel and have a couple of high octane years before they go elsewhere to get paid. Then go through the same down years cycle all over again. Scenario C which we seem to be witnessing is sustained mediocrity. Fans, management, and the players will slowly burn out on this one. It is not a good situation for anyone. For me personally, I do not want a local team just to have a team to spar with other teams to get them ready for the playoffs. So, do I want a team in town? ABSOLUTELY. Will I support a constant also ran for a prolonged period? NO.

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So wait...you'd risk the team moving just to have the slightest chance of being slightly more successful?

Again, for this team to make a profit as it's spending now, it'd have to go deep into the playoffs. If we spend even more, we'd have to consistently make it to the SCF to make a profit. And the difference in what we're spending now and what we could be spending is not enough to turn this team into a consistent playoff contender.

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First, there is no need for name calling. I could just as easily ask why some "bozos" would want to pay to watch a training partner for teams that will be playing when there is actually something to be won (the playoffs) year in and year out. To me, that is a waste of money.

Second, the Canes have never seen a sustained winner. The Canes have been to the playoffs 4 times in 10 years, 3 in 7 played seasons since the move to Raleigh. What would attendance, STH sales, revenues, etc. be if the team was a perrenial winner going to the playoffs 5 or 6 of the last 7 seasons? We cannot be certain. And likely, we won't know without spending more money which brings me to point 3.

Third, I looked up cap spending on nhlnumbers.com, the Canes have a cap hit of $50.5 mil. Here are the teams that spend less than the Canes:

Atlanta - $47.6

Buffalo - $50.2

Columbus - $49.3

LA - $45.2

Nashville - $44.8

NYI - $48.8

Phoenix - $46.5

Tampa - $50.3

Toronto - $47.5

What do all of these teams have in common? It is a huge surprise if the team makes the playoffs. (I have pulled Vancouver out of the list due to the addition of Sundin. They were at $49.2 before his addition.)

Other teams below $55 mil: Edmonton, Florida, Minnesota, and Ottawa. Again, not exactly perrenial powerhouses. That leaves 16 teams spending over $55 (including Vancouver now). As of writing this, only 3 teams spending less than $55 mil are in playoff positions and those spots are 8th in the East and 7th and 8th in the West...nipping at the heels of the playoffs and not exactly secure. (And, only 3 teams that spend over $55 are not presently in playoff position.) Does this mean that the Canes play well for the money spent? YES. Does that suggest sound hockey management? YES.

So, the question ultimately is one of balancing area economics with putting together a competitive team. If the Canes would spend 10% more ($5 mil. - wisely - as they manage now), putting them into the 13/16 playoff ratio - make the playoffs an expectation, and raise ticket prices 10 to 15% (in line with other teams and the added expenditure) would I continue to attend? YES. What would happen is some people would complain, but would continue to spend equal dollars for fewer games. Would enough fans either spend more than now and/or would new fans be drawn in if the team was regularly in the playoffs to make up the difference? That we do not know, but we do know that winning would drive interest and playoffs bring added revenue. What will lose interest and ultimately revenues is having a continuously mediocre team. Which is point 4.

Fourth, the cycle of mediocrity is the worst scenario IMO. I would rather see the team A. spend and see if the fans/area respond. If the fans do respond, then we have ourselves a whole lot of fun. If the area does not respond, then the team can move for economic reasons and the fans have no one to blame but ourselves. This is also best for the players, they deserve the chance to play for a winner. Or, scenario B. go through what the Pens went through so we can get serious prospects and watch a young team gel and have a couple of high octane years before they go elsewhere to get paid. Then go through the same down years cycle all over again. Scenario C which we seem to be witnessing is sustained mediocrity. Fans, management, and the players will slowly burn out on this one. It is not a good situation for anyone. For me personally, I do not want a local team just to have a team to spar with other teams to get them ready for the playoffs. So, do I want a team in town? ABSOLUTELY. Will I support a constant also ran for a prolonged period? NO.

again it boils down to simple economics, if you only have $50mil coming in you don't go out and spend $56mil!! The reason the Red Wings, Rangers and MakeBeliefs of the world can do it is because their revenue far exceeds payroll!!!!

secondly, this is a small market team. if you raise ticket prices 10-15% you will most likely lose 10-15% of your STH base!!! Given that we already have to get deep into the playoffs to break even, this won't happen.

thirdly, in this economy where do you expect STH'ers to get the extra 10-15% to pay for YOUR higher ticket prices.

THE MONEY JUST ISN'T THERE!! Your arguments would hold water if this was Toronto but don't work in Raleighwood!!

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First, there is no need for name calling. I could just as easily ask why some "bozos" would want to pay to watch a training partner for teams that will be playing when there is actually something to be won (the playoffs) year in and year out. To me, that is a waste of money.

Second, the Canes have never seen a sustained winner. The Canes have been to the playoffs 4 times in 10 years, 3 in 7 played seasons since the move to Raleigh. What would attendance, STH sales, revenues, etc. be if the team was a perrenial winner going to the playoffs 5 or 6 of the last 7 seasons? We cannot be certain. And likely, we won't know without spending more money which brings me to point 3.

Third, I looked up cap spending on nhlnumbers.com, the Canes have a cap hit of $50.5 mil. Here are the teams that spend less than the Canes:

Atlanta - $47.6

Buffalo - $50.2

Columbus - $49.3

LA - $45.2

Nashville - $44.8

NYI - $48.8

Phoenix - $46.5

Tampa - $50.3

Toronto - $47.5

What do all of these teams have in common? It is a huge surprise if the team makes the playoffs. (I have pulled Vancouver out of the list due to the addition of Sundin. They were at $49.2 before his addition.)

Other teams below $55 mil: Edmonton, Florida, Minnesota, and Ottawa. Again, not exactly perrenial powerhouses. That leaves 16 teams spending over $55 (including Vancouver now). As of writing this, only 3 teams spending less than $55 mil are in playoff positions and those spots are 8th in the East and 7th and 8th in the West...nipping at the heels of the playoffs and not exactly secure. (And, only 3 teams that spend over $55 are not presently in playoff position.) Does this mean that the Canes play well for the money spent? YES. Does that suggest sound hockey management? YES.

So, the question ultimately is one of balancing area economics with putting together a competitive team. If the Canes would spend 10% more ($5 mil. - wisely - as they manage now), putting them into the 13/16 playoff ratio - make the playoffs an expectation, and raise ticket prices 10 to 15% (in line with other teams and the added expenditure) would I continue to attend? YES. What would happen is some people would complain, but would continue to spend equal dollars for fewer games. Would enough fans either spend more than now and/or would new fans be drawn in if the team was regularly in the playoffs to make up the difference? That we do not know, but we do know that winning would drive interest and playoffs bring added revenue. What will lose interest and ultimately revenues is having a continuously mediocre team. Which is point 4.

Fourth, the cycle of mediocrity is the worst scenario IMO. I would rather see the team A. spend and see if the fans/area respond. If the fans do respond, then we have ourselves a whole lot of fun. If the area does not respond, then the team can move for economic reasons and the fans have no one to blame but ourselves. This is also best for the players, they deserve the chance to play for a winner. Or, scenario B. go through what the Pens went through so we can get serious prospects and watch a young team gel and have a couple of high octane years before they go elsewhere to get paid. Then go through the same down years cycle all over again. Scenario C which we seem to be witnessing is sustained mediocrity. Fans, management, and the players will slowly burn out on this one. It is not a good situation for anyone. For me personally, I do not want a local team just to have a team to spar with other teams to get them ready for the playoffs. So, do I want a team in town? ABSOLUTELY. Will I support a constant also ran for a prolonged period? NO.

again it boils down to simple economics, if you only have $50mil coming in you don't go out and spend $56mil!! The reason the Red Wings, Rangers and MakeBeliefs of the world can do it is because their revenue far exceeds payroll!!!!

secondly, this is a small market team. if you raise ticket prices 10-15% you will most likely lose 10-15% of your STH base!!! Given that we already have to get deep into the playoffs to break even, this won't happen.

thirdly, in this economy where do you expect STH'ers to get the extra 10-15% to pay for YOUR higher ticket prices.

THE MONEY JUST ISN'T THERE!! Your arguments would hold water if this was Toronto but don't work in Raleighwood!!

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I saw through the bottom dwelling years here and that is the reason we go Eric Staal but I rather win more gamest than aim for the bottom. The Pens got so good because they dwelled at the bottom for years and came close to loosing their team.

I would say the period of time between the '02-'03 and the '05-'06 season would count as an extended low point. The only difference is that the Penguins produced Malkin, Crosby, and Staal out of their down years while the Hurricanes produced Staal, Ladd, and Johnson. You had three homeruns by the Penguins and one homerun and two strikeouts by the Hurricanes.

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I would say the period of time between the '02-'03 and the '05-'06 season would count as an extended low point. The only difference is that the Penguins produced Malkin, Crosby, and Staal out of their down years while the Hurricanes produced Staal, Ladd, and Johnson. You had three homeruns by the Penguins and one homerun and two strikeouts by the Hurricanes.

Don't forget that Andrew Ladd = Tuomo Ruutuu, and Jack Johnson = Tim Gleason.

So from the three picks, we got Staal, Ruutuu (25), and Gleason (24).

And Pittsburgh isn't doing anything special with their drafting. Its not like the Canes would have passed on Crosby and Malkin.

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So wait...you'd risk the team moving just to have the slightest chance of being slightly more successful?

Again, for this team to make a profit as it's spending now, it'd have to go deep into the playoffs. If we spend even more, we'd have to consistently make it to the SCF to make a profit. And the difference in what we're spending now and what we could be spending is not enough to turn this team into a consistent playoff contender.

Yes. And the chance of success is not slight. 13 of 16 spending $55 mil + are presently in playoff positions, those are excellent odds. If the economics are such that the team cannot profit here on a regular basis and put a regular contender on the ice then it is better for the players and management to move. In part, they deserve better based on how much they do with what they have...Imagine what could be possible with a full cap. What I would prefer to see is the opportunity for this team to go on an extended run of years with playoff appearances and see if the area is as apathetic toward the Canes as everyone seems to think it would be. Give the area 4 years of consistent playoff appearances and see what happens. You can't go deep into the playoffs if you can't first make the playoffs.

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No, the chances are slight. It doesn't matter how much a team spends. It matters what they spend it on. We're over our self-imposed cap now, and we're fighting for a playoff spot.

Spending the additional 6 million would grab us 1 more star player. So basically replace William's or Whitney's 70 points with 90 points. Would that get us to the playoffs? Possibly. Wouldn't get us anywhere near deep enough to make a profit. This team's got a couple holes in it, and spending to the cap wouldn't seal all of them.

Then we move to next year, where Staal's salary essentially doubles. Meaning we'll have even less to spend on depth players. The same depth that has Boston and San Jose at the top of the standings.

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again it boils down to simple economics, if you only have $50mil coming in you don't go out and spend $56mil!! The reason the Red Wings, Rangers and MakeBeliefs of the world can do it is because their revenue far exceeds payroll!!!!

secondly, this is a small market team. if you raise ticket prices 10-15% you will most likely lose 10-15% of your STH base!!! Given that we already have to get deep into the playoffs to break even, this won't happen.

thirdly, in this economy where do you expect STH'ers to get the extra 10-15% to pay for YOUR higher ticket prices.

THE MONEY JUST ISN'T THERE!! Your arguments would hold water if this was Toronto but don't work in Raleighwood!!

This is the NHL with a low, hard cap. That is why teams that are considered small markets in other sports can spend to the cap. If the Canes owner did not do or did terrible market research before moving the team here, that is not the problem of the fans or the players. Ownership owes the players and league a competitive team, if that means moving, then ok.

On the STH issue, I am a STH and would foot the additional for the improved results. When I will be lost is if the mediocrity continues, next year is probably my limit. If the team loses an equivalent part of its STH base to the % price increase upon the increase, then revenue remains even to the prior season. If the team is more successful, it will draw in more "drop in" fans and increase overall revenue. Over time (years) with consistent playoff contention, the interest and drop in fans may lead to an increase in STH numbers, overall revenue, and achieve profitability. If as you say, the money isn't there for this to happen in Raleigh, so be it, but at least ownership and management would have made the effort.

If the present team needs to go deep into the playoffs for profitability and ownership is insistent upon profitability now, then break up the team and put a $45 mil product on the ice. See if that is profitable and develop a team system that will produce an exciting team for a year or two in a couple of years. The present consistency of mediocrity does nothing for anyone...Owners lose money and will eventuall have to move anyway, players get to play golf and don't get to compete when it counts, and fans are left feeling let down.

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