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carcanes67

Are we losing money, by not spending money?

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No, the chances are slight. It doesn't matter how much a team spends. It matters what they spend it on. We're over our self-imposed cap now, and we're fighting for a playoff spot.

Spending the additional 6 million would grab us 1 more star player. So basically replace William's or Whitney's 70 points with 90 points. Would that get us to the playoffs? Possibly. Wouldn't get us anywhere near deep enough to make a profit. This team's got a couple holes in it, and spending to the cap wouldn't seal all of them.

Then we move to next year, where Staal's salary essentially doubles. Meaning we'll have even less to spend on depth players. The same depth that has Boston and San Jose at the top of the standings.

The stats are clear, 13/16, that is basically an 80% chance, excellent. I do not believe that Canes management would make the poor decisions to be in the 3/16 group. If the Canes are already one of the 3 teams under $55 mil in a playoff position, that just adds to my point. Spending another 4.5 can solidify them, not shore up everything, but if you add at the top (for example) depth increases by shaking players down the depth chart. So, in your example the total add to the team is not just 20 individual player points, you would have to consider all of the shake out positions that improve as well.

I agree with you that depth can become a year to year issue, but that seems to be the way of the post lockout NHL.

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In this market, hockey will always come in third to ACC BB and FB. I believe that while fans want a team that always makes the finals, a realistic goal is to have a team that plays hard for every shift and has a realistic goal of being a playoff contender.

Build a team on one or two "super stars" and should they get hurt or have an off-year that team is sunk. Proffesional sports is a tough business and the lack of a major television contract makes owning/running an NHL team that much harder.

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When drafting young talent, it is hard to tell whether a player will be a hit or a miss, so it is really hard to judge when you're pick is on the board, who is the better player. IF you pick TOP 5 to maybe 10, it fairly easy to see whose gonna be a star. After that, it's a roll of the dice. You really don't know if you have a diamond in the rough or just a piece of coal.

IF you wanna talk draft picks, why not dig deeper into the Canes/Whalers history and see who we drafted and let go and ended up being a hit:

Jean-S

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I wouldn't call Ladd a bust-he just didn't do as much as you would expect from that high a pick. He seems to be doing well in Chicago and we got Ruutu so its all good. I was amazed at the quality players we missed out on. Thanks for putting together that info. Maybe its our scouting making questionable choices?

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I think that JR and the Canes management is fast approaching a major decision. It is related to this thread. The team is like a defenseman trying to decide whether or not to pinch and go after that loose puck.

The team is currently playing better. This actually makes their decision more difficult. Due to the return of Staal and Samsonov and some improved efficiency though the coaching moves, we have become a slightly above average team. But we are still one piece away from being a serious contender. That piece is very touchy and controversial though. The team (as is) will battle for that last playoff spot and if we make it (far from certain) we will be a long shot to get past the first round.

So, does the team pull the trigger on a move to upgrade the team and go for it, or hope that the improvements made thusfar are enought to sneak in, and then "anything can happen in the playoffs"?

I think that a big move could put us solidly in the playoffs and establish us as a threat to go deep. It would likely mean an increase in payroll, but it would also bring returns that may eclipse the cost. The thing is it must be the right move.

The right move is to replace Brind'Amour with a very solid NHL second line center, or even better a star center. This is the glaring need for the team, and would change everything with one move (it may take a couple of moves, but the key substitution is at second line center). Upgrade this postion without giving up a top 6 forward, or a top 4 defenseman and the team is instantly much better.

The defense is much improved. The goaltending is much improved. The fist line is starting to produce. The second line is the key. Now the following may be dreaming because the deal would be so lopsided, but imagine if we could get Spezza without giving up the above. If it were just a salary issue. Our second line would be (eventually as Williams improves):

Whitney--Spezza--Williams

That second line center position is so crucial. He creates and sets up the wingers, in this case two snipers with a long history of proven point production. That second line would probably outscore our first line.

If not Spezza, even a notch down would be an upgrade at this point in history. The problem is obvious though. How do you move Brind'Amour? That's the scene that will play out. What is more important? Treating the legacy player with the utmost respect, or the immediate success of the team? Now if Rod came to realize that he was a liability and offered himself in a trade or retire, etc, it would make it easier on the team, but I have seen nothing to indicate that he is going to do that.

Now if the Canes make a move to upgrade at at different position the results would be far less certain. We would still have the problem in the middle of the second line, and no solid second line center. If they can't bring themselves to upgrade the second line center, then they probably shouldn't spend the money.

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When talking about spending more money, the question must be asked, "Where will the money come from?" And ultimately, it comes from the fans. True, we could spend more and get some big-name player and possibly more wins, but would that result in more seats sold? Given the current state of the economy, I am doubtful it would result in a significant increase. I will cite me as an example. I love the game of ice hockey and the Hurricanes, but I have been forced to reexamine how I spend my money. And, as much as I love the Canes and the game, it is just that, a game. There are more pressing survival matters that must take priority. The result is, I will be attending fewer games and not visiting the EYE during the games I do attend. The only difference signing a superstar would make for me is I might change wich games I attend, not the number. Also, I look at some of the high dollar signings of the recet past and wonder, again because of the current state of the economy, if the NHL is going to find itself in some dire financial straights. But, this is just my opinion.

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Yes. And the chance of success is not slight. 13 of 16 spending $55 mil + are presently in playoff positions, those are excellent odds. If the economics are such that the team cannot profit here on a regular basis and put a regular contender on the ice then it is better for the players and management to move. In part, they deserve better based on how much they do with what they have...Imagine what could be possible with a full cap. What I would prefer to see is the opportunity for this team to go on an extended run of years with playoff appearances and see if the area is as apathetic toward the Canes as everyone seems to think it would be. Give the area 4 years of consistent playoff appearances and see what happens. You can't go deep into the playoffs if you can't first make the playoffs.

What you don't understand is that are market WILL NOT support that so unless you are in a position to give the team $6-8mil every season it just won't fly.

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I have no idea how the economics works, but if the average playoff ticket costs $60 and there are 18,000 tickets sold per game, then that would be over $1 million per home game not including concessions, TV money, etc. Getting to the conference finals is clearly worth way over $10 million in revenues, probably a lot more, not to mention building interest and fan base. I am guessing that adding one more 6-8 million dollar salary would be worth it if we went at least past the first round.

Of course the key is that the move puts you there. That is why teams "rent" players, which is probably the move that JR will ultimately make if the team continues on the current path. Then if the added player doesn't put you deep into the playoffs, you don't have to keep them around the next year. Plus you give up a lot less to get them in the first place.

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What you don't understand is that are market WILL NOT support that so unless you are in a position to give the team $6-8mil every season it just won't fly.

I think I addressed this in post 26 above. If the area does not get behind a winner, then that is what it is, but we cannot say for certain that is the case because we have never seen the Canes go on a consistent run of years in the playoffs. As it stands now, the team is losing money regardless. The present cycle is one that will lead to slow burn out on the part of both ownership and fans and the team moves to another city due to an inability to profit or sale.

I like the recommendations for improving scouting and drafting, maybe bring in a proven guy for that area of the organIzation. It would likely be more profitable to put a $45 mil team on the ice and have a quality system in place. At this point, revenues would likely not drop off to that extent. The young talent would develop in front of the fans, get 1 or 2 good playoff runs in and then be able to move on to teams that can pay. I would be satisfied with this approach because it accepts finances and strives to compete on a basis other than cash. It also provides exciting hockey in the development phase. However, Canes management needs to recognize this cycle and then dismantle the team to be able to rebuild without hanging onto the guys and giving them budget stretching contracts simply because they took the team deep into the playoffs. This is how most small market teams survive and compete.

What I personally will not accept is an organization that takes on what I consider a losers mentality. That is, well we cannot afford to put out a really solid team and we are losing money anyway, so all we can do is hope to make the playoffs each year without a clear expectation or plan about how to actually get there and look to advance. Winners will do what it takes to be able win based on what circumstances will provide to them. The Canes could spend an added $5 mil and see if, given time, the revenues pour in due to steady playoff appearances. That is playing to win on the ice and win in the marketplace - this way we could truly learn if Raleigh will not support the team as you believe. The team might also take the build a system approach for those 1 or 2 years of greatness out of every 7, again this is playing to win based on what you've got. What I don't want to continue to watch is a team that looks like it is becoming a perrenial sparring partner for teams that will actually play when it means something. Whether a team finishes with 0 points or 89 points it has the same result and meaning, you weren't good enough to give yourself the chance to win in this league.

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I have no idea how the economics works, but if the average playoff ticket costs $60 and there are 18,000 tickets sold per game, then that would be over $1 million per home game not including concessions, TV money, etc. Getting to the conference finals is clearly worth way over $10 million in revenues, probably a lot more, not to mention building interest and fan base. I am guessing that adding one more 6-8 million dollar salary would be worth it if we went at least past the first round.

Of course the key is that the move puts you there. That is why teams "rent" players, which is probably the move that JR will ultimately make if the team continues on the current path. Then if the added player doesn't put you deep into the playoffs, you don't have to keep them around the next year. Plus you give up a lot less to get them in the first place.

One thing to remember is when the canes won the cup in 2006, they have stated publically and was confirmed by Luke Decock that the first 2 rounds ticket revenue went to the NHL and they got to keep the last 2 rounds. In short, teams don't keep all the revenue. Also, the first round and even the 2nd round ticket costs are not that big of an increase. No doubt it helps but it is also like spinning the wheel in Vegas and put it all on 10 red. If you win, you get something back. If you loose, you have a lot to explain to your wife or landlord.

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A specious a statement as I've ever read. If you would've taken the time to compare the two teams records, T-Ball,

you'd find the Penguins have had the better record most years and more playoff appearances than the 'Canes. You

saw bottom-feeding all right - just not as much of the rewards as expected.

Say what you want,..... call what I said "specious a statement" as I did take the time to compare. I compared draft choices per my comments. The canes have not had a #1 draft choice postion as the Pens have had 2 this century along with two number 2s'.

With that many first and second round choices, you are not exactly tearing up the league and maybe bottom feeder is not your term, how about "low muncher"

BIg difference between a #1/#2 guy and the rest. Take this year as every one is talking about John tavares and the Sweedish D-kid, Victor Hedman, but not much in the standard media about the others.

PENS

2000: Brooks Orpik (18th overall)

2001: Colby Armstrong (21st overall)

2002: Ryan Whitney (5th overall)

2003: Marc-Andre Fleury (1st overall)

2004: Evgeni Malkin (2nd overall)

2005: Sidney Crosby (1st overall)

2006: Jordan Staal (2nd overall)

2007: Angelo Esposito (20th overall)

CANES

2000: none

2001: Igor Knyazev (15th overall)

2002: Cam Ward (25th overall)

2003: Eric Staal (2nd overall)

2004: Andrew Ladd (4th overall)

2005: Jack Johnson (3rd overall)

2006: none

2007: Brandon Sutter (11th overall)

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One thing to remember is when the canes won the cup in 2006, they have stated publically and was confirmed by Luke Decock that the first 2 rounds ticket revenue went to the NHL and they got to keep the last 2 rounds. In short, teams don't keep all the revenue.

I did not know that. So only 4 out of 30 teams get paid for the playoffs? Forget it then. Trade Staal for Keith Aucoin now.

The team must get some kind of revenue from the first two rounds? TV? Concessions? Parking? Other?

I guess increased attendance the next year must be the biggie.

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It it the first revenue from the two rounds is shared by all teams making the playoffs? Or, are those eliminated in the first round cut from the pool? Is this why there is a sharp increase for the conference finals and the Cup finals?

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Well, there's a lot of time left to decide, but it'll come down to: do you stay status quo for this year and hope for the best

in the playoffs, or dump salary at the March 4th deadline. By asking Whitney and Walker to waive their NTC's - which may

happen if it meant going to the right team - JR could add a couple of cheap NHL-ready prospects and a couple of draft picks.

You won't hear me complain if it comes to that. Anything's better than the perpetual circle of "Too low for the playoffs, too high for the draft" we seem stuck in.

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Hopefully our drafting has gotten better within the last 2 years (Sutter and Boychuk for instance), I really think Boychuk is going to be a hit. From what I saw earlier in the season and in clips, he looked pretty good, but just needs some more time to develop...

But yeah, drafting and development are definitely the best way. It'd be nice to have a good team that knows how to work well together, feed off each other, and make a good run for the cup, at a good price.

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Agreed with you David, I think JR needs to get the phones going in the offseason and make some decent trades for once. What happened to the supposed beefing up the fourth line? Seems to have gotten smaller to me. We need scoring, but not mediocre scoring, we need young, solid scoring.. maybe a possible point per gamer, not Ray Whitney at his age! My idea of a great team for the next few years (if not longer) would definately be Chicago Blackhawks... when they drafted (and they were pretty much forced too, given the length of time they were dead last in the NHL), they got #1 picks galore, which will eventually (right now!) translate into a winning formula. Maybe we should throw in the towel this year and get in the Tavares sweepstakes! I could only imagine him, Boychuk, Staal, etc. playing together and how good our team could be! Time for the aging players to go, bring in the younger talent! Through the draft and smart dealing, this 'Canes team could be a staple for a long time without spending too much (though money is the cure-all.) PK isn't willing to open his pockets more, so now JR has to improvise.. come on PK, you can do a little better than that! Anyways..... GO 'CANES!!!!!!!!!!! Playoffs? or BUST!

That won't happen under the current system, we play best when we roll four lines leaving our opponents to decide which line to put their top d-men against. we haven't done that in a while. with the exception of the fourth line the current systems just seems to throw guys on the ice and hope for the best.

WELCOME TO MOE'S!! :P

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That won't happen under the current system, we play best when we roll four lines leaving our opponents to decide which line to put their top d-men against. we haven't done that in a while. with the exception of the fourth line the current systems just seems to throw guys on the ice and hope for the best.

WELCOME TO MOE'S!! :P

Oh so very true!!! Management needs to change too!!!!

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As compared to the pre-lockout NHL where teams could spend as much as they wanted, with or without the $6 million advantage we should be able to ice a team that can compete and win.

It isn't so much how much money you spend now as where you put it. If we make smart signings then we can compete with any team in the league. If we draft smart we can compete with any team in the league. It's just a matter of making the right choices when the cards are down.

In 2002 we made it to the Stanley Cup Finals with one of the lowest payrolls in the league. We matched up against a team laden with future Hall of Famers signed to enormous contracts and they walked away with the Cup. Had a few bounces gone the other way, we would have won it all.

The salary cap is forcing GMs to make smart choices. The teams that make the smartest choices will be rewarded for that.

Just because this team does not throw around big money in unrestricted free agency, don't think it doesn't spend money. We just promised Eric Staal about $80 million and Joni Pitkanen $12 million at the start of the season.

What we need is for the players that we have to step up and play hockey like they can. Eric Staal has been bouncing back. Samsonov has come alive. Ruutu has been playing strong. That whole line is working together as they should have been the whole season.

The truth is that we need more from Brind'Amour, Cullen, Walker, Whitney, Williams, and Eaves. If we can get those guys all going at the same time, we're pretty hard to beat. $6 million more in players isn't going to solve the problem of our best players not playing like our best players and Brind'Amour has been just awful this season.

As soon as Williams starts playing like Williams again, this team should be able to keep its head above playoff contention with the way Cam Ward is playing in net.

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As compared to the pre-lockout NHL where teams could spend as much as they wanted, with or without the $6 million advantage we should be able to ice a team that can compete and win.

It isn't so much how much money you spend now as where you put it. If we make smart signings then we can compete with any team in the league. If we draft smart we can compete with any team in the league. It's just a matter of making the right choices when the cards are down.

In 2002 we made it to the Stanley Cup Finals with one of the lowest payrolls in the league. We matched up against a team laden with future Hall of Famers signed to enormous contracts and they walked away with the Cup. Had a few bounces gone the other way, we would have won it all.

The salary cap is forcing GMs to make smart choices. The teams that make the smartest choices will be rewarded for that.

Just because this team does not throw around big money in unrestricted free agency, don't think it doesn't spend money. We just promised Eric Staal about $80 million and Joni Pitkanen $12 million at the start of the season.

What we need is for the players that we have to step up and play hockey like they can. Eric Staal has been bouncing back. Samsonov has come alive. Ruutu has been playing strong. That whole line is working together as they should have been the whole season.

The truth is that we need more from Brind'Amour, Cullen, Walker, Whitney, Williams, and Eaves. If we can get those guys all going at the same time, we're pretty hard to beat. $6 million more in players isn't going to solve the problem of our best players not playing like our best players and Brind'Amour has been just awful this season.

As soon as Williams starts playing like Williams again, this team should be able to keep its head above playoff contention with the way Cam Ward is playing in net.

Well said. I agree that spendng more money wouldnt have changed this season as its unfolded. PK and JR have shown they're not shying away from big money contracts when its right but they will never just throw money at high dollar free agents irresponsibly. I cant remember where I read it but somewhere someone had actually followed the high dollar free agent signings over a period of years and rarely did it ever result in a championship. I actually think the study followed several pro sports and compared the amount of big contracts to championships won.

The pieces are here to compete with any team in the league, they just need to play more balanced with each other so one player or line isn't carrying the load for the whole team. They may not be able to beat every team but they should at the very least, be competetive.

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