With the Captain out of the line up, questions about how to move forward arise

[GOCANES1311]

Great post TSA... I honestly wonder the same thing, I think we have been playing extremely well, he deserves maybe some time in the press box to glance on the other players and give the coaches time to decide.

I am sure his injury is key to why he hasn't played good at all, but he is getting old, 38 is he? There has got to be a time for everyone to retire and i know he is a "fighter", but a "fighter" that is better off a dad then a hurting hockey player.

It sad to think that the AHL guys are playing up to his abilities..(besides faceoffs) but we are getting there. The guy taking rod's place right now, had an assist already in his first game, takes time for Rod...we need a consistent player and IMO rod doesn't show that.

I hope the coaches make the right decision and whatever it is I hope its good for the team because they deserve the best.

[Wolfer]

Last I checked, Brind'Amour was still Captain of this TEAM. The coaches have done the right thing in decreasing his TOI, and letting Cullen and Staal take on greater roles as centers. The TEAM has responded well to others leading in Rod's absence.

I hope the Canes continue to improve with less of Brind'Amour. However, he can still play a valuable, yet limited, role for the balance of the season. Hopefully he recovers, but leads by allowing others to step forward.

Rod's play has been far below his Stanley Cup season. That was clear even last year before the injury he suffered. I'd still take him as a player with a more limited role for the remainder of the current season.

[kingofminneapolis]

First off, I say give Rod a little more time than he needs to come back just to be "precautionary" but really to buy more time to see if the team stays better without him. If this happens then eventually I think he will need to be put back in, just to keep class in our organization. But just make sure he has limited 3rd line minutes, and have him playing just a few more minutes than the 4th line. Keep him off the PK, but keep him on the PP and park him in front of the net because he wins faceoffs, and he has showed he can score from a few feet from the net. Lastly make sure he teaches Staal, Cullen, Sutter, and possibly Boychuk his faceoff technique before/after he leaves.

Hopefully he retires after this season, but if for some reason he doesnt I say keep him on the 4th line all next year.

[caniacmaniacm]

If you were JR, Paul Maurice or Ron Francis, how would you handle this?

Its no secret that Rod Brind'Amour has struggled this season to compete at a level that us fans and Rod himself have come to expect, especially after his amazing play in 2006 that helped bring the Stanley Cup to NC. Just like last season, he's out of the line up now and the team is playing at a much higher level with more speed, more energy and more overall confidence. While 2 games isnt enough to conclude anything, its hard to overlook the immediate changes. The goal tending and defense have played well enough all season to keep the Canes in the thick of it but the forward lines have struggled to produce. The lines had been reshuffled countless times by 2 different coaches to spark anything but over time, the forward struggles IMO kept coming back to the struggles of the 2nd line center position. Its near impossible to be an offensive threat when you only carry one true skilled scoring line. Its too much pressure to put on the other lines to cover for a line that's supposed to be playing lots of minutes against other top skilled scoring lines for other teams.

We've discussed how they got to this point plenty so now its time to discuss how we think the team should handle this moving forward. What do you do with your potential future Hall of Famer, 2 time Selke Award winning Captain who's will and desire to lead and compete is still there, but physically he's struggling. I don't think anyone here has questioned his desire or character and most acknowledge what he means to this team and what he's done here. Its a curious situation that won't have any easy answers because of the respect Rod Brind'Amour has earned in his time here.

Ron Francis knows first hand what all this feels like to an extent so Im optimistic he'll have a big say in any decisions that are made about this moving forward. He saw his minutes and responsibilities decreased as he headed toward the end of his playing career too, and was able to retire on his own terms when he decided he was done.

I have no idea where Rod Brind'Amour's head is with all this and Im sure if he hadn't had the injuries he's had the past year and half he'd have been able to keep contributing at a much higher level, but he did get injured and had major reconstructive surgery at a late age for an NHL player. Not to mention the fact that he's watched Justin Williams work back from his injuries way ahead of schedule and that had to be tough to take while he's had set backs along the way.

I dont have a good answer to my own question and I'm really glad I don't have to. Whatever happens the rest of this season and moving forward with Rod Brind'Amour, its obvious how respected and looked up to he is within the organization because if he wasn't, this wouldn't be as tough of a situation as it is.

awwwwwwwwwwsome post TSA!!! I remembered when we got him to come to Carolina.....the first thing i did was buy a Brind'Amour jersey! Nobody and I mean NOBODY works as hard as Rod does. All of these questions regarding his high level of play are up in high debate. Hes injured once again...it cant be good. Whatever happens...he is still Rod Bygod Brind'Amour to me! get well soon Roddy!

[colliefan]

While he is off the ice, the Canes need to find a way to use his leadership in some capacity. Fitness/workout guru? Color comentator with Tripp and John?

[caniacgirl]

Great post TSA. I agree with everyone so far that it's hard to separate the way we feel about him as a person/leader from the way he has played this season. I have never questioned his desire and his heart nor have I ever thought that his leadership abilities have slipped. He has always struck me as the kind of guy who is harder on himself than anyone else is, so you can be sure it's eating him up, especially since he is so competitive and wants the team to do well. But we can't ignore the fact that he isn't the same Rod from '05-'06. (And honestly, I think it's unfair of us to expect that he would be. It's been almost three years and he's had a very serious injury during that time.) I think we have to wait it out a little to see if the past two games were a fluke or if the team really does play better without him having such a significant role. (I also think it's important to remember that last year's team was a different team, so just because they did well after he went down last year, we can't assume the same thing will happen this year.) If the trend of the last two games continues, then it may be time to decrease his role even further whether that be fewer minutes or whatnot. However, this has to be done with the utmost tact and class because he has given too much to this organization to be treated poorly in what very well could be his last season. Ultimately, he is the captain until HE decides to step down or retire and should be treated as such.

[remkin]

I understand that it is tough to come to grips with this issue. But this new thread shows exactly why the idea of whether or not the Canes are a better team without Brind'Amour is a legitimate topic and not just more Brindy bashing. There is still a large contingency who think that a few days off and Brind'Amour can come back and "contribute" on the third line. Some of us don't. Some of us think that the affect of his struggles on the team are greater than the sum of their parts, and that removing him lifts the entire team well beyond the -30 points themselves. It is sad. It is also true. And until someone, either the team or Brind'Amour convey that this is more long term the issue is ripe.

The two game resurgence is not a coincidence though. These were not just lucky wins. We took out the best home team in the game on their ice and then had the first blow out win two nights later again on the road. Time will be the ultimate judge, but the odds are that the effect of this move was immediate and resounding.

As to how to handle the situation, I think that the team is handling it as well as possible. Of course this is rank speculation, but I am guessing that this is the first step and that this will become a more permanent thing. Someone realized after the Vancouver loss that the team was about to tailspin (which I think it was about to) and they pulled the trigger. Heck it may have been Roddy himself, who knows? I suspect that this nagging injury may take quite a while to heal, but that is speculation, they might put him back in in a couple of games. Hence the lack of "moving on".

Still, that is right. They can't just say, "Well, that's about it Rod. Thanks for your service, turn in your playbook, nice knowning you, keep in touch." They had to get him off the ice and out of the situation. They are not putting Rod Brind'Amour in the pressbox. This was the best they could do. But what they cannot do, is bring him back any time soon. That simply will not work. So he must rehab and rest up, but really he must take stock of where he is, while we see what the team will do without him. The problem will come if the team does well and he wants back in. My guess is he gets another chance and the team reacts poorly to it. Sorry, but there it is. My hope is that he rests up for the rest of the season and maybe gives it another go next year.

[cullen4firstline]

I would strip the C, put him on LTIR, and hope that he retires.

Give the C to Gleason.

[canesfan06]

There is absolutely no denying what Roddy has done for this team, his teammates, and this organization. He has been the face of the franchise, the unshakable leader, and the go to guy that this team needed. He helped us raise the Cup in '06, he led our team into the heart of the playoffs and helped us emerge victorious. For everything he has done for this team, I am definitely thankful. He, I am sure, is well aware that his numbers as of late are way down, and he knows hes getting out of his prime. The team, as inexplicable as it may be sometimes, preforms best when our big names go down. Honestly, I think Roddy should step down while he has his legacy intact. Not to say that his game will continue to fall, but he should retire before he becomes looked down upon by most teams for his ability, not his past legacy. We have a great core of young leaders ready to take his place. Roddy still has so much he can contribute to our team, but I feel like his best contributions could probably come off the ice instead of on. No matter what happens, I will always respect our captain, and be thankful for everything he has done for us.

[TSA]

I would strip the C, put him on LTIR, and hope that he retires.

Give the C to Gleason.

Stripping someone of their C is pretty harsh and sends a pretty ugly message. I get that you feel he shouldnt lead the team anymore and that you want him done, but you really dont think that he deserves any kind of respectful ending to his career here? Doesnt a guy who brought credibilty to this market along with that Cup, and always has showed solid character and determination all along the way deserve a little better than to be demoralized at the end of his time here?

Just saying...

[TSA]

There is absolutely no denying what Roddy has done for this team, his teammates, and this organization. He has been the face of the franchise, the unshakable leader, and the go to guy that this team needed. He helped us raise the Cup in '06, he led our team into the heart of the playoffs and helped us emerge victorious. For everything he has done for this team, I am definitely thankful. He, I am sure, is well aware that his numbers as of late are way down, and he knows hes getting out of his prime. The team, as inexplicable as it may be sometimes, preforms best when our big names go down. Honestly, I think Roddy should step down while he has his legacy intact. Not to say that his game will continue to fall, but he should retire before he becomes looked down upon by most teams for his ability, not his past legacy. We have a great core of young leaders ready to take his place. Roddy still has so much he can contribute to our team, but I feel like his best contributions could probably come off the ice instead of on. No matter what happens, I will always respect our captain, and be thankful for everything he has done for us.

You're assuming he's ready to retire. What if he's not and wants another try? The question is what would you do if you were JR, Maurice or Francis?

[canesfan06]

I would strip the C, put him on LTIR, and hope that he retires.

Give the C to Gleason.

I also don't know how you could justify to Staal why he wasn't getting the C in place of Gleason. I agree with you that Timmy is a leader on the ice, but Staal is the future of the franchise now and probably thinks he deserves the C next.

[TSA]

I also don't know how you could justify to Staal why he wasn't getting the C in place of Gleason. I agree with you that Timmy is a leader on the ice, but Staal is the future of the franchise now and probably thinks he deserves the C next.

Please dont turn this into another who should wear the C thread. Stay with the topic at hand.

[canesfan06]

You're assuming he's ready to retire. What if he's not and wants another try? The question is what would you do if you were JR, Maurice or Francis?

In that case, I would probably have to agree with Remkin, sit him out, let him rehab, and try to come back with a vengeance next season. If that happened, I would definitely leave the C on his jersey, because he definitely deserves to be the captain as long as he is with this franchise.

[iamafirehazrd]

I think the big problem here is Rod is too much of a competitor to say, I'm hurting too much to be effective on the ice so I should rest. This means the team's management and coaches are going to have to make him do it until he can be an effective player. I still think he can be a decent player in the league but he has got to be healthy to do so.

If the team keeps playing with the energy they have since the game vs San Jose, Maurice must scratch him until he can really contribute on the ice more than the guy he would be replacing. I'm all for him playing but if, and only if, he can really be effective in the role he is playing, whether that is 2nd line, 3rd or 4th line duty.

As for Brind'Amour's future it should be in his hands. The franchise owes him too much and can't take the PR hit from trading him if he doesn't want to go, not that anyone would take him at this point, or forcing him to retire. I just don't believe that if he is still hurting come training camp next season that he will attempt to play again. Given his "give it all" personality on the ice and in the training room, it has to painful for him to see how poorly he's played this year. I doubt he is living up to his own personal expectations and that has to be killing him.

That being said I think JR has to lay out a set of reasonable expectations for Brind'Amour from a management prospective in the off season for next year. Namely that:

1) If you are healthy we would like you back but you will have to earn your ice time and line placement with your play this year.

2) If you aren't healthy enough to play up to our expectations, you will be scratched.

And then let Rod make his own decision from there because he's earned it, just like Wesley had earned his 1 year deals until he wanted to go. But Rod, like Wesley before him, needs to be comfortable taking a lesser role and be capable of handling it. Otherwise this team will continue to have some of the same problems its had all year when he is on the ice.

[ivyleager]

Please dont turn this into another who should wear the C thread. Stay with the topic at hand.

But that is exactly the next logical extension to your question, how to move forward, is it not? In order to move forward, a decision WILL need to be made about "the captain". Either by players themselves making a statement "Rod is still our captain" like they did last year, or by management/coaches. If they stay silent, then uncertainty will create its own energy. Sutter did it in Jersey when he came in, stripped C from Elias and gave it to Langenbrunner. It didn't exactly cause the team to crumble or add turmoil to Lou's well run franchise.

Now, it's my opinion that the players are making their statement on how to move forward by playing an extremely FAST, UPTEMPO game this past week. For whatever reason, their play on the ice has picked up. This has been the best this team has played all season. I'd take it a step further, with Rod and Scottie out, this team is younger and faster. Time will tell if this is the formula for success. To be sure, this will be talked about on XM tomorrow. I'll be listening to hear what the talking heads have to say.

Should coaches or mgmt. throw slow moving, old bodies out there, we'll keep our losing ways. The secret may be that if you are a small team, then be very very fast. Like marsupials (name that actor).

[TSA]

But that is exactly the next logical extension to your question, how to move forward, is it not? In order to move forward, a decision WILL need to be made about "the captain". Either by players themselves making a statement "Rod is still our captain" like they did last year, or by management/coaches. If they stay silent, then uncertainty will create its own energy. Sutter did it in Jersey when he came in, stripped C from Elias and gave it to Langenbrunner. It didn't exactly cause the team to crumble or add turmoil to Lou's well run franchise.

Now, it's my opinion that the players are making their statement on how to move forward by playing an extremely FAST, UPTEMPO game this past week. For whatever reason, their play on the ice has picked up. This has been the best this team has played all season. I'd take it a step further, with Rod and Scottie out, this team is younger and faster. Time will tell if this is the formula for success. To be sure, this will be talked about on XM tomorrow. I'll be listening to hear what the talking heads have to say.

Should coaches or mgmt. throw slow moving, old bodies out there, we'll keep our losing ways. The secret may be that if you are a small team, then be very very fast. Like marsupials (name that actor).

Deciding what to do about the C in regards to Brind'Amour can definately be a part of the discussion, but not debating who it should go to. That's a whole different thread and debating that here would derail this topic.

So are you saying you would strip him of the C as your decision or wait till the players decide? Does he play again and if not, what do you do if he says he's ready to go Thursday?

(no clue on the actor)

[goeb]

Sign cullen to an extension, and have Rod play a limited role on the team. If Rod is unhappy with that, well then he can retire, the team's sucess always comes first, before any player.

[ivyleager]

Deciding what to do about the C is definately part of this discussion, but not debating who it should go to. That's a whole different thread and debating that here would derail this topic.

So are you saying you would strip him of the C as your decision or wait till the players decide? Does he play again and if not, what do you do if he says he's ready to go Thursday?

(no clue on the actor)

I would not strip him of the C, no. I think it is up to him to pass on his C. I do believe it's up to the coaches to decide if he's ready to be reinserted into the lineup. (Notice my phrasing, I did not say "ready to play"). I could say I am ready to play, but I'd be fudging the facts. As competitive as he is, he may believe he is ready to play. But should he go out there an lay another -2 giant egg, then he is not ready.

The days of giving the veterans a pass is gone. The new NHL has a different business model, which is winning=increased attendance=increased profits= able to get a portion of revenue sharing. This franchise cannot afford to miss revenue sharing or the playoffs. Tough decisions for management, for sure.

[IceFrog999]

Ultimately, it's up to Brindamour and Brindamour alone. He's been in this organization long enough to have his word mean more to the team and to the fans than the management's word, and the management knows this. It's why they haven't done anything drastic like stripping him of the "C" or trading him away. In fact, I'd be willing to bet he only received less ice time because he gave the OK for it.

Currently, what the organization is doing with him is fine. Decrease his icetime, but keep him the leader and the captain of this team until he feels like someone else on the team deserves it more.

Past that, it'll all depend on Brindamour's decisions. If he retires, so be it. If he wants another shot at a Cup, trade him to a Cup contender as a rental. If he wants to stick around, sign him to 1-year deals until he feels ready to move on. What he's done for this team and this organization cannot be overstated, and I think the organization at least owes him a little loyalty.

[RuutuWooWoooo]

IMO, Brind'Amour should take the rest of this year to rehab and take stock of himself, his situation, and what is best for the team. Use this time to apply his work ethic and listen to Pete Friesen so he can get his lower body in the best condition for hockey it can reach at this point in his career. Then, return to play with the team next season in training camp and see where he is at. I think of this like an older running back in the NFL, they often need to rehab a knee, then play a year that is subpar statistically, and it is the year after that when they return to a higher playing level statistically. This MIGHT be possible for Rod. However, if come training camp, Rod doesn't have it and he recognizes it, he can gracefully retire saying that injuries curtailed the end of his career.

The difficult question would be if at that point Rod does not have it at training camp and presses to play. It is the role of mgmt and coaches to make the tough decisions and do what is best for the team to be able to win. If Rod is at the same playing level as this year, that would mean that they do not play Brindy. Rod has earned loyalty and the team has extended that to him throughout last season and this season and would do so by having him play in training camp. However, at some point they may need to deliver the difficult message that Rod is no longer playing at the level that either he or they expect of him. Both sides have enough class that this would not become contentious and something would get worked out, either a retirement or a re-entry waiver deal to a Cup contender taking a Vet for 4th line Center, etc. Fans may have difficulty seeing Rod go out other than on his own terms, but winning will change that, and the team imo would have given him plenty of opportunity to choose to go out on his own accord at that point.

I do not want to overlook that there may be more to the timing of this latest injury stint than we may be aware. The team played in Vancouver for his last game to date. He may have talked face to face with family, or just not had "it" to give in front of friends and family and that was a wake up call to him. Or, that game may have been a date circled on the calendar for a while that he wanted to play through because he could play in BC again. Or, he may have had a conversation with Ron Francis on the flight, etc. Maybe there's nothing to it, but I find the timing of this and lack of clear hit/injury worth considering.

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out. No one player is more important than the team and hopefully everyone involved will find an acceptable way to work through it.

[bigbander]

...with finesse and class, just like the Canes organization.

I would probably slow his return as much as possible - the old "better to be safe" routine.

Once back, I'd continue to limit his ice time.

I'd give him every opportunity to be the face of the organization by getting him interviews and air time.

If we get into the playoffs, I'd use him in situations he excels.

Behind the scenes, in one on ones, I'd broach the subject of other opportunities to serve the team... and encourage him in that direction.

Over the hopefully short summer, I'd move Rods exposure down and Staals up...introducing him as face face of the franchise and "C".

Next spring, I'd have a Rod Brind'Amour night...though raising his jersey is not something I think I'm ready to do.

[hopper915]

I am in no way a professional athlete, but I have had the same surgery Rod had on his knee and I can tell you, it takes time

to recover. I think that Rod should at least take the rest of the regular season off to get healthy. WHEN we make the playoffs (positive thinking)

he can return and play limited minutes on even strength and possibly on the PK.

He was probably on schedule to return fully at the beginning of this season, but hit a major setback when

they had to go and clean out his knee.

He has given a lot to this organization since he was picked up in a trade in 2000, so I believe he is due some respect from the

organization for all that he has done.

I don't know if you can really compare Rod's injury with Justin's. Justin can wear a brace to help out with his ankle issue

and does not require as much flexing as a person's knee would. It's not like Rod can wear a brace on his knee, for it

would limit him tremendously as far as his mobility and lower body strength.

That being said, on the issue of taking the "C" away from him might not be a bad idea. It would take more pressure off of

his shoulders being Captain. The Dallas Stars did this a few years back with Modano and made Morrow the Captain and Modano

an Alternate and it has worked out. So this option could be explored sometime NEXT season.

[TSA]

I am in no way a professional athlete, but I have had the same surgery Rod had on his knee and I can tell you, it takes time

to recover. I think that Rod should at least take the rest of the regular season off to get healthy. WHEN we make the playoffs (positive thinking)

he can return and play limited minutes on even strength and possibly on the PK.

He was probably on schedule to return fully at the beginning of this season, but hit a major setback when

they had to go and clean out his knee.

He has given a lot to this organization since he was picked up in a trade in 2000, so I believe he is due some respect from the

organization for all that he has done.

I don't know if you can really compare Rod's injury with Justin's. Justin can wear a brace to help out with his ankle issue

and does not require as much flexing as a person's knee would. It's not like Rod can wear a brace on his knee, for it

would limit him tremendously as far as his mobility and lower body strength.

That being said, on the issue of taking the "C" away from him might not be a bad idea. It would take more pressure off of

his shoulders being Captain. The Dallas Stars did this a few years back with Modano and made Morrow the Captain and Modano

an Alternate and it has worked out. So this option could be explored sometime NEXT season.

I thought Justin had knee surgery last season? He had the achilles rupture this pre season around the same time Brind'Amour had his clean out, thats why I compared them. Coming back from a full tendon rupture is a lot harder than a clean out and both were coming off of major knee repairs.

You and Ivyleager make good points about other teams that have changed Captains and I think in the off season, it can be done respectfully if thats what is decided is the best course of action. Maybe someone else does but I dont know f any cases where the Captain had his C removed during the season though. Seems to me that would be pretty demoralizing unless its because of injury or he chooses it for himself.

Good responses so far.

[mluther9]

I say sit him out until he is absolutely 100% and then see how he fits in after that. The problem with Rod is he will push himeself to the point where it can become a negative and to make up for the negative he pushes himself harder or digs himself deeper into a hole. He lost a step after the surgery and knowing this he was unsure of himself with the puck and was irresponsible trying to make things happen. I have no doubt that at 100% he can benefit this team in some capacity.