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ncz82

Brind'Amour currently the worst defensive player in the league

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Move up the LaRose/Helminen/Ruutu line up to 2nd behind Staals' and let those two be the scoring lines. Then the 4th is the energy line and replacement parts with all the injuries.

You seem to know a lot about hockey. Perhaps you could explain how "Move up the LaRose/Helminen/Ruutu line up to 2nd" would make any difference? Would playing against the opponent's #2 D pairing instead of the 3rd D pairing help out with this line scoring more? Does numbering the lines differently significantly increase or decrease their effectiveness? Is the coach required to play the lines in a 1-2-3 sequence? I can't wait to read your informative response.

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You seem to know a lot about hockey. Perhaps you could explain how "Move up the LaRose/Helminen/Ruutu line up to 2nd" would make any difference? Would playing against the opponent's #2 D pairing instead of the 3rd D pairing help out with this line scoring more? Does numbering the lines differently significantly increase or decrease their effectiveness? Is the coach required to play the lines in a 1-2-3 sequence? I can't wait to read your informative response.

Yikes...relax on the sarcasm and indirect insults

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You seem to know a lot about hockey. Perhaps you could explain how "Move up the LaRose/Helminen/Ruutu line up to 2nd" would make any difference? Would playing against the opponent's #2 D pairing instead of the 3rd D pairing help out with this line scoring more? Does numbering the lines differently significantly increase or decrease their effectiveness? Is the coach required to play the lines in a 1-2-3 sequence? I can't wait to read your informative response.

Maybe you should read my other reply. Would help keep your replies more informative. :rolleyes:

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I suppose the "bench him" comment is pointing to punishing him for his play. Yeah, that's what I'd do to my Captain, my "player-coach." That ought to about do the trick. Embarrassing him by benching him should help team morale up and down the line-up. Sit him down. :rolleyes: He looked a little slow tonight also. That broken nose he suffered last night in Washington and those stitches in his nose are no excuse. Bench him! While we are at it, bench Staal too. His play with his shoulder injury is no excuse for his not playing like a super star.

While Brindy is getting back up to speed from his knee injury, I might give him more rest, give him a shift off every so often. I'd do about anything except bench him. But what do I know about hockey. Maybe hockey is different from other sports. Maybe benching your future hall of famer and Captain would make him hustle more. :rolleyes:

ncz82, IMNSHO you missed a wonderful opportunity to stand silent. :angry:

Once again we have another excuse. Don't you understand that he is never going to get back up to speed? How about having the Player/Coach/Captain who has a broken nose, broken knee and stitches take a seat on the bench and start coaching. Yes it would boost morale and be better for us down the road. Let the man rest and heal. That ought to do the trick.

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Well he did get that made up for tonight with a assist what do you think about that now?

His overall game was not good and again he took a very lazy penalty at a crucial time of the game.

But....I give him full props for his last minute heroics to preserve the win when Ottawa was coming hard to tie it up. That is exactly the type of play needed by the leader of this team and Im sure everyone on that bench acknowleged it. The desire and determination is still obviously there but unfortunately the body cant keep up right now. Reduce his minutes and responsibilites till he's healed.

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I wish people would read the whole thread before posting sometimes. This wasnt about bashing Brind'Amour "I'm seeing no effort or hustle in his play" or even calling for him to be benched, "But I think that Lavi should bench him a few games" it was about suggesting to reduce some of his responsibilties on the ice till he either heals or finds his game again. It certainly wasnt about stripping him of his Captaincy or saying he wasnt the leader of this team.

Here is the originating post.

"I've been really patient with him thinking that it's only a matter of time before he regains his defensive dominance but enough is enough. He's just not skating. He's not making plays on the defensive end and looks completely out of place out there. The -10 speaks for itself. He's been terrible this year. He always seems to be there watching the other team score when I see replays of the goals. I'm seeing no effort or hustle in his play. This is so not like him. I wonder if he is still recovering from his injury? Or maybe he's just getting old and lost his hustle? Either way he's hurting the team. It really pains me to say this because he's one of my favorite players and the captain. But I think that Lavi should bench him a few games. "

No, it wasn't about "stripping him of his Captaincy or saying he wasnt the leader of this team. I don't know, TSA, but it sure looks like benching is being called for and while it may not be bashing (berating him for play the poster considered harmful to the team), it will do until proper bashing comes along. I know your thinking is that people should be able to post anything without being called out. I don't want people to leave, either, but loose cannon criticism of the players evokes the worst response from some of us.

I'd like to suggest you or other administrators create a "guidelines for posting" that let's the new members know what to expect when they express their criticism harshly and opinions as fact. Prefacing our criticism with "it appears to me" or something like that would make the critcism easier to listen to. Harsh, judgemental criticism of the players is as offensive to me as scatalogical language is to others.

IMNSHO If we can abide by GDT Rules and Language rules, we should be able to keep a civil tongue while being hypercritical of the players unless we are prepared to deal with the responses such criticism evokes.

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You seem to know a lot about hockey.

Since you think people should be called out for posting bad opinions, I'll answer yours.

My hockey knowledge, by the way, is based on over 20 years of watching hockey at all levels. Plus I also played a lot of lacrosse up into college, which is very similar in many ways to hockey. Many of hockey's greats play both sports, and use lacrosse to keep in shape for hockey. That's why hockey is Canada's official winter sport and lacrosse the official summer sport.

No, I didn't play hockey growing up, but that wasn't for the lack of my love of the sport, but rather the lack of any place to play it at. Kind of hard to play hockey when there's no rinks around.

Perhaps you could explain how "Move up the LaRose/Helminen/Ruutu line up to 2nd" would make any difference?

In the current situation with both Cullen and Sutter out due to injuries, you only have four centers to really make any lines out of on the Canes. Staal is obvious to remain centering the first line. There's no doubt about that. The only way he won't be is if he's on the IR. That leaves Helminen, Dwyer and Brind'Amour as the only other choices. As so many others have been pointing out in this thread, Rod just isn't getting the job done as the second line center. No matter if you think he's lost a step due to injury or age or whatever, most everyone can see that he's not playing like he used to. I've felt myself that something the Canes have badly needed the past several seasons is a good checking line, which I feel would be perfect for Brindy. He's one of the very best in the league at faceoffs, and he's a two-time Selke winner. You don't win that for being just okay at defense. Plus, as I said above, by having him on a checking line he can get some defensive help from his linemates to help cover the fact that he is slowed down for whatever reason. Playing Rod on a second scoring line is a huge mistake, because by doing so you are exposing a huge weakness that the other team can take advantage of. At least until he can heal and get a better pace back. Take the pressure off of him to be thinking of scoring and let him concentrate on what he does best, instead.

So what does that leave? Right now only Helminen and Dwyer are left. Many of us are impressed with Dwyer's PK abilities so far, but he hasn't shown anything that he deserves to be on a top scoring line in the NHL yet. Helminen's line, however, is the only line this year that has really shown any form of consistency and chemistry. Anyone who has watched sports that involve lines, or especially played them, knows that when you find a line that shows good chemistry you get as much as you can out of them. That is why I believe that this line should be moved up to the second scoring line for now. They've proven they play well together.

Dissolving that line to mix whoever you take off of Brindy's current line would be a huge mistake in my opinion. One of the few things I've really disagreed with Laviolette with is that he doesn't keep lines together enough to let them develop that chemistry, and is too quick to split them up when they have. Injuries are something you have to deal with, but doesn't mean you have to change around every line on the team, either. When one is working well, keep it together. Change the others around instead.

When Cullen comes back, there's obviously a better choice to center the second scoring line, and the lines can be adjusted back. However, in the current situation this is what I believe would be best for the Canes.

Would playing against the opponent's #2 D pairing instead of the 3rd D pairing help out with this line scoring more?

You put a forward line out to play against another forward line, not based solely on the D pairing. Not unless you're playing a team like Anaheim that has D-men like Niedermeyer and Pronger and try getting your top scoring lines out when they aren't on the ice.

However, taking the same logic, you'd rather have Brindy, who is slowed down and not playing up to his usual par, out against better defenders and better offensive lines being told he needs to score more? This is exactly why so many here are saying his time on the ice should be cut, not increased. You don't play someone more than usual to get them to play better. You play them more after they start playing better, not before.

Does numbering the lines differently significantly increase or decrease their effectiveness?

Already covered this in a reply above, but I'll make it crystal clear for you and everyone else. No. Line numbers are to help organize the lines. A first line is usually made up the best scorers on the team, the second line players that can also score but aren't quite of the same caliber. The third line on most teams is a checking line, which for those who don't know since it is so foreign to the Canes the past few years is a line made up of the better defensive forwards on the team that usually are sent out to play against the top scoring forwards of the other team to shut them down (again, not against a certain D pairing). The fourth line is the energy line, which is sent out to hit and play hard to keep the energy of the team up in the game, as the name implies.

So I guess you could say it depends. If you have a player on a line that doesn't fit their play well, then it obviously decreases their effectiveness - like if you took Staal and moved him down. Putting a player on a line that better fits them will increase their effectiveness, such as I've been suggesting with Brindy.

Is the coach required to play the lines in a 1-2-3 sequence?

Obviously not, as I already stated. A number one line does tend to play the most, a second line next most, etc., though. So it does make a difference.

I can't wait to read your informative response.

And I can't wait to read an informative response from you. You know, maybe one where you actually say what you think should be done and back it up, rather than simply criticizing the opinions of others and insulting them for it.

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Here is the originating post.

"I've been really patient with him thinking that it's only a matter of time before he regains his defensive dominance but enough is enough. He's just not skating. He's not making plays on the defensive end and looks completely out of place out there. The -10 speaks for itself. He's been terrible this year. He always seems to be there watching the other team score when I see replays of the goals. I'm seeing no effort or hustle in his play. This is so not like him. I wonder if he is still recovering from his injury? Or maybe he's just getting old and lost his hustle? Either way he's hurting the team. It really pains me to say this because he's one of my favorite players and the captain. But I think that Lavi should bench him a few games. "

No, it wasn't about "stripping him of his Captaincy or saying he wasn't the leader of this team. I don't know, TSA, but it sure looks like benching is being called for and while it may not be bashing (berating him for play the poster considered harmful to the team), it will do until proper bashing comes along. I know your thinking is that people should be able to post anything without being called out. I don't want people to leave, either, but loose cannon criticism of the players evokes the worst response from some of us.

I'd like to suggest you or other administrators create a "guidelines for posting" that let's the new members know what to expect when they express their criticism harshly and opinions as fact. Prefacing our criticism with "it appears to me" or something like that would make the criticism easier to listen to. Harsh, judgemental criticism of the players is as offensive to me as scatological language is to others.

IMNSHO If we can abide by GDT Rules and Language rules, we should be able to keep a civil tongue while being hypercritical of the players unless we are prepared to deal with the responses such criticism evokes.

First of all, since this was directed to me, we don't isolate or ridicule new posters here, we welcome them. We'd like to think that when someone joins here, they've taken some time to read the http://forums.carolinahurricanes.com/index.php?showtopic=13407' target="_blank">Terms Of Service[/post] (which they had to agree to when they registered), and that they've taken a little time to lurk first and "learn" what is an isn't acceptable here. Just like when you first joined and there were questions, we know there is a learning curve and we give a little leeway to those brand new. If issues arise, we educate the new member fully expecting whatever line was crossed or came close to getting crossed, was now understood so there would no issues moving forward.

Second, if you take issue with what someone has posted and feel its either crossed a line or is against the rules, there is a nifty little button called report a post you can click. When this happens, ALL the staff receive this report and when needed, will discuss what, if anything, needs to be done about it.

Third, we don't expect every one to agree with everything thats posted but we do expect that we can all treat each other with respect. If you want to share your opinions and they are different than someone else's, all the power to you, but do it respectfully and without personally attacking or insulting the person that doesn't share your point of view. How difficult is it to say " I don't agree with your post and here's why...."

If this needs further clarification, feel free to pm any of the staff.

Like Jaycane said, carry on.....

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My two cents on Rod's minus-

1. Chemistry- The injuries that have taken place have made the lines a flavor of the week at the wings. Now that Walker is playing with Brindy you are seeing Scotty's physical play clear more ice for Sergei and Brindy to cycle while the plays are setting up. Look at Staal's line as another example. Without the physical play of Cole on the wing it has been easier for teams to stack up on Staal and he is battling right now because of it. Getting more physical play out of a wing will also delay the transition other teams are getting to bring the puck back up the ice.

2. Health- He started on a bum leg and has had to play while expecting it to heal. Not a good combination but IMO he looks to have gotten faster as the season has gone on. To me it has been a function of the line as a whole not getting up the ice well or not being in position for passes which goes back to number one.

3. Recognition- On the positive Rod has recognized some of the issues and is doing the little things. Diving for pucks, faceoffs, and playing more physical.

Finally, if were in December having this conversation with a relative healthy group I think Brindy will already have had some heart to heart conversations with Lavi on what direction to take and ice time will show it.

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My two cents on Rod's minus-

1. Chemistry- The injuries that have taken place have made the lines a flavor of the week at the wings. Now that Walker is playing with Brindy you are seeing Scotty's physical play clear more ice for Sergei and Brindy to cycle while the plays are setting up. Look at Staal's line as another example. Without the physical play of Cole on the wing it has been easier for teams to stack up on Staal and he is battling right now because of it. Getting more physical play out of a wing will also delay the transition other teams are getting to bring the puck back up the ice.

2. Health- He started on a bum leg and has had to play while expecting it to heal. Not a good combination but IMO he looks to have gotten faster as the season has gone on. To me it has been a function of the line as a whole not getting up the ice well or not being in position for passes which goes back to number one.

3. Recognition- On the positive Rod has recognized some of the issues and is doing the little things. Diving for pucks, faceoffs, and playing more physical.

Finally, if were in December having this conversation with a relative healthy group I think Brindy will already have had some heart to heart conversations with Lavi on what direction to take and ice time will show it.

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Another -3 for Brind'Amour. Doesn't seem to be getting any better...

I keep trying to defend him, and then it just gets worse... Direct giveaway on the 2nd Reasoner goal... Rod earned the -3 its sad to say. :(

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One thing to say...at least, Brindy is one of our few forwards that keep putting numbers. He scores, he wins faceoffs, and surely he's still battlin' hard.

Maybe, if there's any kind of injury that holds him off to even produce more, he should be sit out for some games and have a rest, but I'm not too sure that would be good for the team rigth now.

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Do they base ice time on how much salary they are being paid? Last year we missed the playoffs because of our play during the months of Nov and Dec. We saw a lot of season ending injuries and continued to put guys out on the ice who were playing hurt. Our management needs to have faith and confidence in the system. Rotating some young guys who have something to prove during the next couple of months would be the best idea. We won't see the immediate results playing around with the lines or adjusting TOI with the guys playing right now.

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I know i might get flamed for this but these days Brindy just looks slow and old (sorta like Ronnie's last year with us). If he is injured then he needs to sit out until he is 100%, Staal has shown the he can lead this team when needed.

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I know i might get flamed for this but these days Brindy just looks slow and old (sorta like Ronnie's last year with us). If he is injured then he needs to sit out until he is 100%, Staal has shown the he can lead this team when needed.

If you read the whole thread , your opinion in is the majority.

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I know i might get flamed for this but these days Brindy just looks slow and old (sorta like Ronnie's last year with us). If he is injured then he needs to sit out until he is 100%, Staal has shown the he can lead this team when needed.

Kinda reminds me of Wesley from last year... fantastic player for both us and the Bruins.. but he realized the game had past him by.. when he noticed he couldnt keep up anymore, he hung up the skates and retired.

I dont think Rod is to that point yet, and i know from behind the scenes looks he keeps himself in insanely good shape.. but I have to admit.. I fully expected him AND wesley to both retire after winning the cup in 06.. Wesley hung around 2 years and finally hung em up, I was really really shocked when Roddy signed that 6 year contract.

If we go deep this year and *dont want to jinx us - knocks on three pieces of wood* win it all.. prehaps Brindy will retire? Still got 3 years left on the contract, but of course thats the players choice to hang it up and null out the contract.

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I know i might get flamed for this but these days Brindy just looks slow and old (sorta like Ronnie's last year with us). If he is injured then he needs to sit out until he is 100%, Staal has shown the he can lead this team when needed.

This is the problem. We have no healthy proven NHL centers. Staal could pick up the load if he wasn't playing injured. Brind'

Amour is either still injured (recovering) or old or both, Cullen has been out, Sutter is out. I just listed our TOP 4 Centers. All out or playing hurt.

Hopefully we get Cullen back soon, and we even need Sutter back. If Cullen comes back we need him to center the second line, or even dare I say it, the top line at some point. We don't need Cullen on the wing. He is a natural center and we desparetly need healthy, productive centers. If we get Cullen and Sutter back, maybe rest Brind'Amour, or even get Staal's shoulder right. Last year proved that we can win at least regular season without Brind'Amour. We are toast if we don't get Staal right.

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I know i might get flamed for this but these days Brindy just looks slow and old (sorta like Ronnie's last year with us). If he is injured then he needs to sit out until he is 100%, Staal has shown the he can lead this team when needed.

No flaming here, but my problem w/ your statement is that both Staal and Brindy seem to be playing at a lot less than 100% whether it's due to injury or not. I think they both need a game or 2 off, probably not at the same time, but they do need it. If their problems are due to injury/fatigue, they'll benefit from the rest and heal their wounds. If the problems are psychological, then it's a little wake up call, in sports commonly known as "benching". Either way, it should help them.

You wanna flame-bait statement, how about this - In my opinion, the best hockey the Canes have played since 06-19-06 was during the time Brind'Amour was out due to injury. Draw your own conclusions....

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if staals problem is the shoulder, a few games off wont help. A shoulder injury that drags out this long needs the knife. I think staal is ok. he is winning a lot of battle. his problem is that he chooses not to battle too often. brindy seems done.

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I know this is kinda off topic but for Cullen to come back and be our 1st line center he will have to regain the game he had before the big hit last year. Matt just doesn't seem to be the same guy he was before the hit. And i can't say that i really blame him either.But it sure would be nice to the the cup year Matt Cullen back!!!

If Staal's spot si considered firs tline, no , Matt won't be there, his play as you have stated, is not as great as last year so far.

I made a thread last year that Matt should get more minutes though in like early December and it turned into a Staal bashing thread, funny that now people want him to play in Rod's spot. If it does happen it won't be until after a long streak of bad play by rod and good play by Matt (or brandon could swoop in). I have no idea what goes inside Lavi's head though, if this stuff even crosses his mind, cause it is his make or break year and unlike last year the offense isn't producing nearly at the same rate.

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I don't see Brindy as bad as most of you. Look at the numbers, he is tied for second in the Canes scoring, he's the best faceoff guy in the league (at least close to zigomanis), he's diving for pucks, he's centering his line well. Of course, we won't see a 25 yerars old Brindy anymore, but I think he's still great, with just some things not goin' right for him now.

Look at his goal against the ducks...who in this team, right now, is even able to do that move, not to question to keep the calmness to start it?

His +/- is bad, for sure, and he did a buncha mistakes, but he still keeps scoring, battlin', winning faceoffs, and even winning us games...that's all things we can't say about most of our other forwards. If we're goin to pick some guys to blame on...how about Samsonov? He is -8 as well, and scored gigantic 3 assists in 15 games. Or what about Staal, who isn't even close to what we'd expect of him?

[...] I think staal is ok. he is winning a lot of battle. his problem is that he chooses not to battle too often [...]

Totally agree with that.

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I don't see Brindy as bad as most of you. Look at the numbers, he is tied for second in the Canes scoring, he's the best faceoff guy in the league (at least close to zigomanis), he's diving for pucks, he's centering his line well. Of course, we won't see a 25 yerars old Brindy anymore, but I think he's still great, with just some things not goin' right for him now.

Look at his goal against the ducks...who in this team, right now, is even able to do that move, not to question to keep the calmness to start it?

His +/- is bad, for sure, and he did a buncha mistakes, but he still keeps scoring, battlin', winning faceoffs, and even winning us games...that's all things we can't say about most of our other forwards. If we're goin to pick some guys to blame on...how about Samsonov? He is -8 as well, and scored gigantic 3 assists in 15 games. Or what about Staal, who isn't even close to what we'd expect of him?

Totally agree with that.

I tried this arguement and people shot it down... apparently they dont care about his offensive production if his defense is lousy (strange considering he's not a defenseman)

I'm not sure where I stand on this.. I keep kinda waffling to one side or the other.. Yeah the -3 against atlanta was bad, but he scored the first goal of the game, cant be too bad right?

I still think most of the minuses come down to ice time and strategy... Brindamour plays a lot of ice time, and he takes a lot of face offs in our defensive zone.. gotta figure some of those turn into a cycle for the other team and a goal, he gets trapped on the ice.

On the other hand you have the giveaway against atlanta that gave them the third goal.. inexcusable... he earned that minus for sure... I'm not sure whats up with Rod but I hope he figures it out before the game leaves him behind.. if it hasnt already...

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Rod is still doing what he does best: faceoffs and leading by example by working his tail off while injured. I would personally give him a week or two off once Brandon and Matt reestablish themselves in the lineup. This would give him an opportunity to rest up a little and maybe Staal can reignite himself like he did after Valentine's day.

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