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micheelob

Ward is average at best!

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Except that once again, most of those stats reflect the team play.

GAA and SV% are at least partly based on the team in front of him.

Not sure how they track Penalty shots on NHL.com, but it says Ward has faced 1 penalty shot this year and has allowed 2 penalty shot goals. It should be obvious that something's wrong when they claim he's got under a .000 SV% in penalty shots. Not to mention, the only penalty shot I remember was against the Islanders early in the year, and he stopped Weight's to secure the win. So he's at least made 1 save on a penalty shot this year.

And as for special teams, aside from the fact that it too is a based on the team in front of him, their rankings include goalies who have played very little games. Heck, 9 out of the first 10 goalies in that stat have played less than 10 games.

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DJ, I like the stats. I focus on GAA and SV%. You take those for Cam and he is consistently close to 20th in the league give or take. That, statistically speaking, is the definition of the title of this thread based on 30 teams in the NHL. This is my personal opinion of where Ward is at now...not for his future. IMO, Ward's potential is greater than average.

Frog, your point is well-taken, the team contributes to goals being scored. Seidenberg's turnover yesterday was a factor in the first goal, for example. Goalies, imo, are responsible for stopping shots outside of high-quality scoring zones, ie the slot, portions of the circles, etc. It is the defense that has to pressure the opponent to deny the high quality chances - keep the puck to the boards, deny space, etc. I personally do not have a breakdown of this for Ward...I'd bet Barasso does.

So, if the question is is Ward average? Stats are the place to look and the answer is yes. If the question is is Cam the problem with the team? IMO, the answer is no.

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Ward gave up 1 bad goal today when coincidentally the whole team hadnt shown up to play hockey yet. Then he makes some pretty big saves, the team gets its legs underneath them and Ward plays a solid game from then on. He stopped the few breakaways the defense allowed and guess what? When the team scores more than 1 goal, letting 1 bad one in isnt the end of the world.

It's sad when those big saves he had to make early in the first were from his own teammates. Its bad enough Ward has to concentrate on stopping his opponent let alone his own teammates.

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We could win the Stanley Cup again, Cam win the Conn Smythe(AGAIN) and people would still be complaining about "soft" goals...LOL

Lets talk real world - OK.

No one is going to complain about anything if those 2 things happen but those 2 things will never happen if any GT is giving up softies on a regular basis.

Was the 2nd goal against Boston a softy - YES

Were the 2 on the Island - YES

The one against TB cost him the shut out

Was the first one yesterday - absolutely ....one of the softest I've seen since Weekes let one in off the boards.

For whatever reason they are going in with REGULARITY..... its just has to stop or we are not going to see the post season. The team can only overcome that so many times and already some of those times they have not overcome it.

Sure they are not all Cam's fault but he is the tender and good ones don't let it happen - once again the key words - with REGULARITY.

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Lets talk real world - OK.

No one is going to complain about anything if those 2 things happen but those 2 things will never happen if any GT is giving up softies on a regular basis.

Was the 2nd goal against Boston a softy - YES

Were the 2 on the Island - YES

The one against TB cost him the shut out

Was the first one yesterday - absolutely ....one of the softest I've seen since Weekes let one in off the boards.

For whatever reason they are going in with REGULARITY..... its just has to stop or we are not going to see the post season. The team can only overcome that so many times and already some of those times they have not overcome it.

Sure they are not all Cam's fault but he is the tender and good ones don't let it happen - once again the key words - with REGULARITY.

He lets in softies with regularity. He also makes incredible saves with regularity. It is possible to focus on either side of that issue with Wardo. That is why I think it is best to look at his stats which are average. Ward is good enough at the NHL level to keep us in most games. It is up to the team to win the games.

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Cam --ranks 17th Gaa

-Ranks 18th penalty shots

-ranks 22nd save %

- ranks 43 shootouts

- ranks 10 shutouts

- ranks 43 special teams

All this form NHL.com

Best goalie in the NHL 08-09

8473575.jpg

1.50 GAA and .954 Sv%

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So if there are so many positives about Cam and there are just as many negative's about Cam(which all have been brought up ,,good and bad) doesn't that just prove that he is what this topic is all about..Not him being bad or disliked or not about him being great or liked is about his play being average at best. And don't these stats prove what the topic is all about (Cam being average @ best)not what your or my opinion is( which we are allowed to have even if some people want to blast us for) and the stats kinda prove where Cams game is at this point in his career.

Cam --ranks 17th Gaa

-Ranks 18th penalty shots

-ranks 22nd save %

- ranks 43 shootouts

- ranks 10 shutouts

- ranks 43 special teams

All this form NHL.com

This is really getting old. Last I looked Cam was also 10th in WINS. Something you (or your source) convieniently left out? Oh well, I exercise my right to not read this Cam is average at best thread anymore. I think I get the point. Out.

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And don't these stats prove what the topic is all about (Cam being average @ best)not what your or my opinion is...

....( which we are allowed to have even if some people want to blast us for) and the stats kinda prove where Cams game is at this point in his career.

Cam --ranks 17th Gaa

-Ranks 18th penalty shots

-ranks 22nd save %

- ranks 43 shootouts

- ranks 10 shutouts

- ranks 43 special teams

All this form NHL.com

I think when stats are mentioned in comparison to "average" (@best) it should also be put in the proper perspective. Other than what Frog already mentioned, I think some of us need to be reminded that the NHL.com rankings are based on the performances of 60 goalies which places the "average" on rank #30 not the assumed #15. If you do your math you'll find out that "these stats prove" just the opposite of what some claim.

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This is really getting old. Last I looked Cam was also 10th in WINS. Something you (or your source) convieniently left out? Oh well, I exercise my right to not read this Cam is average at best thread anymore. I think I get the point. Out.

Number of wins is a very deceptive stat for NHL goalies because it is highly dependent on the number of games that the goalie plays. NHL.com does not track win% which would be a more appropriate stat for comparing goalies. GAA and SV% are how I judge goalies on individual play.

I think when stats are mentioned in comparison to "average" (@best) it should also be put in the proper perspective. Other than what Frog already mentioned, I think some of us need to be reminded that the NHL.com rankings are based on the performances of 60 goalies which places the "average" on rank #30 not the assumed #15. If you do your math you'll find out that "these stats prove" just the opposite of what some claim.

There are 30 starting positions in the NHL. If you want to remove backups who have outplayed Cam this year, ok, there are 3 above Cam in stats. That jumps Ward from 20 to 17, still average. These are the best starting goalies in the world, it's extremely tough to be better than average.

If I take your 60 recommendation, Ward is still statistically average. Only the top 10 goalies would be above the average range on a bell curve and the bottom 10 would be below average statistically, even with 60 goalies in the population. Using a group of 60, Ward is a 4th sigma goalie :) .

For fans who think that having a fortress in goal guarantees the playoffs, just look at Columbus and FL this year. Some of the best goalies in the league and they are battling for a playoff spot, just like we are. Having an average goalie with a very good team in front of him has a better chance to make the playoffs than the best goalie with a subpar team. If you get both great goaltending and great play, then you can be Boston this year and that does not just happen overnight for a team.

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Number of wins is a very deceptive stat for NHL goalies because it is highly dependent on the number of games that the goalie plays. NHL.com does not track win% which would be a more appropriate stat for comparing goalies. GAA and SV% are how I judge goalies on individual play.

And that is kinda the point I was trying to make with my Simeon Varlamov post. To make a broad, general statement you can't just pick and choose one or two stats out of 14 just because they suit your purpose. All individual player stats can be deceptive and GAA and Sv% are no exception and not only because it is a team sport. If I go by your prefered comparison, Simeon Varlamov must then be the best NHL goalie because he has a 100% win percentage with a 1.50 GAA and .954 Sv%. I guess it doesn't matter that he only played two games against two slumping teams at the time while the Caps were on a winning streak and moving up into the top 5 best in the NHL? Is that a fair comparison?

There are 30 starting positions in the NHL. If you want to remove backups who have outplayed Cam this year, ok, there are 3 above Cam in stats. That jumps Ward from 20 to 17, still average. These are the best starting goalies in the world, it's extremely tough to be better than average.

If I take your 60 recommendation, Ward is still statistically average. Only the top 10 goalies would be above the average range on a bell curve and the bottom 10 would be below average statistically, even with 60 goalies in the population. Using a group of 60, Ward is a 4th sigma goalie :) .

Again, you're picking and chosing only one or two stats to support your claim. Be it 30 or 60 NHL goalies, if Varlamov is not a fair example of comparing win%, GAA and Sv%, how is it fair to compare Ward's stats to all the other guys who have played less games than him? If you subtract all those guys his GAA ranking all of a sudden jumps to 3rd best overall. Same goes with the Sv%. Take out all the other guys who have only played 20, 30 or 40 games and he suddenly jumps to 4th overall. Is that still average at best? I guess it all depends how you look at stats. There might not be a perfect way but there are fairer ways.

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And that is kinda the point I was trying to make with my Simeon Varlamov post. To make a broad, general statement you can't just pick and choose one or two stats out of 14 just because they suit your purpose. All individual player stats can be deceptive and GAA and Sv% are no exception and not only because it is a team sport. If I go by your prefered comparison, Simeon Varlamov must then be the best NHL goalie because he has a 100% win percentage with a 1.50 GAA and .954 Sv%. I guess it doesn't matter that he only played two games against two slumping teams at the time while the Caps were on a winning streak and moving up into the top 5 best in the NHL? Is that a fair comparison?

Again, you're picking and chosing only one or two stats to support your claim. Be it 30 or 60 NHL goalies, if Varlamov is not a fair example of comparing win%, GAA and Sv%, how is it fair to compare Ward's stats to all the other guys who have played less games than him? If you subtract all those guys his GAA ranking all of a sudden jumps to 3rd best overall. Same goes with the Sv%. Take out all the other guys who have only played 20, 30 or 40 games and he suddenly jumps to 4th overall. Is that still average at best? I guess it all depends how you look at stats. There might not be a perfect way but there are fairer ways.

There is no logic in your argument. Comparing Cam and Varlamov is nonsensical, period. Of course, a goalie has to play a core number of games to be included in stats, just like a batter in baseball needs a certain number of at bats to qualify for batting average because in unusually small numbers percentages can be deceiving. I have judged goalies on GAA and SV% for 30 years and will continue to do so. If you want to make believe that Cam is something more than he is, go ahead, it is not what logical statistics tell.

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Again, you're picking and chosing only one or two stats to support your claim. Be it 30 or 60 NHL goalies, if Varlamov is not a fair example of comparing win%, GAA and Sv%, how is it fair to compare Ward's stats to all the other guys who have played less games than him? If you subtract all those guys his GAA ranking all of a sudden jumps to 3rd best overall. Same goes with the Sv%. Take out all the other guys who have only played 20, 30 or 40 games and he suddenly jumps to 4th overall. Is that still average at best? I guess it all depends how you look at stats. There might not be a perfect way but there are fairer ways.

I noticed this when I did the statistical comparison I posted in the "other" thread. Stats tell a story, but not the story. Maybe somebody needs to come up with a goalie rating, like the QB rating in football. Anyway...if we scored 20 more goals we probably wouldn't be having this discussion! (although some are committed to it)

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So I do not know much about baseball...when an Infielder misses a grounder or an Outfielder dropping a fly ball and the other team scores...does that go against a pitchers ERA?

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When i brought up the stats that I did,they were the only ones that NHL.com had listed in the goalies part. I;m sure if would have looked deeper and deeper and deeper you can find all kinds of stats. But with that said i had no idea what the stats would be. I just went there looked and posted,plain and simple. I didn't have any hidden agenda.They are what they are and thats all they had so i figured if it's good enough for the NHL it's good enough for me.

Plus the fact that if Cams Is Average at best,how is that a bad thing if he is in the middle of the pack at his age? Don't we all hope he gets better each year and move towards the top of the heap? How happy would you be if he is considered one of the top goalies and has his breakdowns and we are on the outside looking in?Being average @ his age and will only most likely get better is a good thing, because once your at the top of your game there is only 1 way to go and thats DOWN. And by no means is that what any of us want as canes fans.

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It is tough to always use straight numbers to decide who is the best, who is average at best and who is below average. In the case of Ward, his numbers show that he is average in the league. I would take that and be happy, were I a Canes fan. There are only a couple of netminders in the East that I would take ahead of Ward: Vokoun being one and a healthy Brodeur would be another. Thomas has been great this season, but I think that has more to do with the team around him and the fact that Fernandez was there to split time with him than anything else (and Fernandez is not nearly as good as Thomas, it is the way the team as a whole played.)

Some other goaltenders may be slightly better than Ward, but not significant enough that it would make a difference in the grand scheme of things: Miller, Lundqvist, Thomas.

Thomas has looked great this season, but I think that has more to do with the team around him and the fact that Fernandez was there to split time with him than anything else (and Fernandez is not nearly as good as Thomas, it is the way the team as a whole played that has his numbers looking good.)

The rest of the goaltenders in the East are not as good as Ward.

Don't you think the Caps would be thrilled to have a goaltender who has a 2.54 GAA and a .910 save pct? I don't think anybody can argue that the Caps are better than the Canes this year because of goaltending, the Caps have given up 4 fewer goals in 1 less game, yet Theodore has a 2.79 GAA and a .901 save pct. And if you want to talk about soft goals, all you have to do is watch just about every game Theodore has played this season to see one or two.

My point is, I think Ward is a bit better than his numbers show this season due to the fact that the Hurricanes as a team have not played up to their potential in most games, but his numbers are not far off from what he is actually bringing to the table.

There are more top notch goaltenders in the west than in the east this season, for whatever reason. So in my opinion, Ward is an average goaltender, yes, he is not yet at the top level, but he is certainly good enough to get the Hurricanes into the playoffs if the rest of the team plays well. There is nothing wrong with being somewhere between the 3rd and 6th best goaltender in the Eastern Conference when the top 8 teams go to the playoffs. Not every team can have the top goaltender in the league, what most teams need is a solid, dependable goaltender who will keep you in most games and give your team a chance to win, night in and night out. Ward is definitely that.

The other thing to look at are Ward's career numbers, he is right on track with a steady improvement this year over last year, as he was better last year than the season before. Next season he may be in consideration for being one of the top goaltenders in the league, if he keeps improving.

Here are the stats -

05-06 28 G 14 W 3.68 GAA .882 pct 0 so

06-07 60 G 30 W 2.93 GAA .897 pct 2 so

07-08 69 G 37 W 2.75 GAA .904 pct 4 so

08-09 48 G 25 W 2.54 GAA .910 pct 4 so so far, with 21 games left to go in the season.

note, last year he had a better winning pct than he has this year, yet his save pct is better this year, indicating to me that the team is not playing as well around Ward as they were last year, yet his play has picked up.

(Plus, he is pretty darn good for a kid that has had only 6 birthdays, right?) :P

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So I do not know much about baseball...when an Infielder misses a grounder or an Outfielder dropping a fly ball and the other team scores...does that go against a pitchers ERA?

Canadian, eh? Only understand hockey :P . I would view the goalie as the fielder, not the pitcher in your example.

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Canadian, eh? Only understand hockey :P . I would view the goalie as the fielder, not the pitcher in your example.

No actually Central Ohio...just never got into baseball.

I guess I just think that if the puck is turned over in the nuetral zone and a player essentially walks in like it's a penalty shot..how can that be put on the Goalie to affect his GAA. The player who does the turning over should get a -2 and may be the goal only counts for .5 against the Goalie or something. There just has to be a better way to measure the worth of a Goalie than just saying "well he has a bad GAA and SV% so he must suck!"

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No actually Central Ohio...just never got into baseball.

I guess I just think that if the puck is turned over in the nuetral zone and a player essentially walks in like it's a penalty shot..how can that be put on the Goalie to affect his GAA. The player who does the turning over should get a -2 and may be the goal only counts for .5 against the Goalie or something. There just has to be a better way to measure the worth of a Goalie than just saying "well he has a bad GAA and SV% so he must suck!"

Admittedly an imperfect analysis, but it gives a decent picture and as a season wears on it balances out across goalies. It's what I've used because the information is accessible and I've yet to find anything better. What you are getting at is what I identify earlier in the thread and what I try to watch during the game. Does the goalie stop and control the shots that he is expected to be able to stop? Those are shots from outside of high quality scoring areas that are consider the responsibility of the goalie to stop and control. I would guess that Barasso breaks this down for Cam. I am not proficient enough to have this broken out or to believe I could do it to a professional level, but it would be great information.

A lot of this is like asking who was better, Roy or Brodeur. Those who go to stats will say Brodeur and those who look at the team will say Roy because Brodeur benefits from the Devils system. Since I don't trust my subjective view enough on this one, I go with stats.

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:unsure::unsure::rolleyes::unsure::unsure:

shhhhh,lets not start this again!!! :(B):huh:

Did Tripper mention something about \"softies\" last nite or was i just hearing what i wanted to hear? :P:o

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:unsure::unsure::rolleyes::unsure::unsure:

shhhhh,lets not start this again!!! :(B):huh:

Did Tripper mention something about \"softies\" last nite or was i just hearing what i wanted to hear? :P:o

He had a tough nite definately. Hopefully he rebounds on Thursday.

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Look to the image just to the left of this post. We need this man in goal; he does not have a problem with "softies".

sarcasm alert

Yep your right!!! ;) Maybe if he was we could have "EXTENZE-D" the winning streak!

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