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rocheccw

Hurricanes Agree Terms with Andrew Alberts

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This whole debate makes my head hurt. It's actually kind of a ridiculous argument. But, I guess some just need something to talk and argue about. Looking at it another way, when a defensemen has the puck and is looking to pass off to another dman or outlet the puck up the ice, it's a transition game, no offense, no defense. So, Frogg and Methods, you are both wrong. :P

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I know Im jumping in here late but.....Can you tell us where exactly you're getting all your info about Alberts? That he folds under the pressure of on-coming forwards, turns the puck over in his own zone and is generally not a good defensive defenseman?

Our scouting and GM must be pretty bad at what they do. I havent read anywhere, except from some fans guessing, that Alberts is slotted as a top 4 guy. JR said he could play up if needed but so could Wallin for short periods of time and no one is claiming him to be top 4. Wallin's contract is done next season and outside of Gleason who does play top 4, there was a need to fill the stay at home role with an experienced NHLer in the coming season and years to come. JR has made it clear he knows he still needs a top 4 guy and it sounds like Seidenberg will still have his chance, or he'll sign another free agent. I wouldnt worry that Alberts is going to be playing 25 minutes a night which sounds like your biggest concern, unless someone gets injured in the top 4.

I may be wrong but it sounds like your opinion is based on comments from other fan boards. You've quoted us what Philly fans have to say from last year but what about the Bruins fans who watched him for years? Or better yet, take a look at his career.

The pressure comment came from Philly fans, the fanbase that has seen his play most recently and thus has a general idea of what we're getting. I could look at the time Alberts spent in Boston, but considering the state of the Bruins during the years he played there, it's hard to get a good report on what Alberts is. He did play well in Boston during that time, but considering where Boston ended up in the standings, it's hard to tell if he stood out because of talent, or because he was an average player on a bad team. It's why I didn't bring up Albert's -15 in his last year with Boston, because Boston wasn't a good team and thus, it's expected to have a low +/- stat.

As for the rest, I have only one problem with Alberts playing the 3rd pairing, and it was already stated: Who's he going to be partnered with? Wallin typically plays the 3rd, and having those two together is just asking for trouble. Thus, either Wallin or Alberts would have to play in the Top 4, and as you said, neither is a Top 4 player. Now, this is all moot if JR does go and get a Top 4 defenseman in FA, but if he doesn't, we've got a problem.

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The pressure comment came from Philly fans, the fanbase that has seen his play most recently and thus has a general idea of what we're getting. I could look at the time Alberts spent in Boston, but considering the state of the Bruins during the years he played there, it's hard to get a good report on what Alberts is. He did play well in Boston during that time, but considering where Boston ended up in the standings, it's hard to tell if he stood out because of talent, or because he was an average player on a bad team. It's why I didn't bring up Albert's -15 in his last year with Boston, because Boston wasn't a good team and thus, it's expected to have a low +/- stat.

As for the rest, I have only one problem with Alberts playing the 3rd pairing, and it was already stated: Who's he going to be partnered with? Wallin typically plays the 3rd, and having those two together is just asking for trouble. Thus, either Wallin or Alberts would have to play in the Top 4, and as you said, neither is a Top 4 player. Now, this is all moot if JR does go and get a Top 4 defenseman in FA, but if he doesn't, we've got a problem.

If it helps in your comparison, Zdeno Chara was a -21 the same year and I would consider him to be a stand out defenseman ;)

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If it helps in your comparison, Zdeno Chara was a -21 the same year and I would consider him to be a stand out defenseman ;)

That certainly helps, but you understand the logic then. You can't judge a player's talent when they're playing a bottom-feeding team. Not to mention, I'd assume Chara played top pair minutes while Alberts was much less.

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As for the rest, I have only one problem with Alberts playing the 3rd pairing, and it was already stated: Who's he going to be partnered with? Wallin typically plays the 3rd, and having those two together is just asking for trouble. Thus, either Wallin or Alberts would have to play in the Top 4, and as you said, neither is a Top 4 player. Now, this is all moot if JR does go and get a Top 4 defenseman in FA, but if he doesn't, we've got a problem.

But if we did go out and get a top 4 guy to go with Pitkanen, assuming Gleason and Corvo aren't broken up, we have the same problem. If the new guy is top 4, then he can't be paired with Alberts/Wallin as that forces the other into the top 4. Unless Maurice and Rutherford feel comfortable with an Alberts/Wallin 3rd pair, and I hope they don't, I don't see how our D would work with both of them in our top 6.

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But if we did go out and get a top 4 guy to go with Pitkanen, assuming Gleason and Corvo aren't broken up, we have the same problem. If the new guy is top 4, then he can't be paired with Alberts/Wallin as that forces the other into the top 4. Unless Maurice and Rutherford feel comfortable with an Alberts/Wallin 3rd pair, and I hope they don't, I don't see how our D would work with both of them in our top 6.

You want the team to sign a new top 4 D, which would force the Wallin/Alberts third pair, but you don't want the Wallin/Alberts combo. Where's the logic in that?

The only thing that even remotely makes sense if if Siedenberg resigns, and we pick up another guy (like the Chicago trades being discussed in the GM thread) which would force Wallin to the pressbox. But then who do you force to swallow 3rd pair minutes out of guys playing a top 4 role? Do you demote Pitkanen? or Seidenberg?

Something like: Gleason/Corvo - Pitkanen/Barker(just for a name) and Seidenberg/Alberts - Is that what your looking at?

If you want only one of the Alberts/Wallin combo to play you have to fill two slots in the D. One for Seidenbergs spot (the top 4 we are trying to fill) and the bottom pair slot to force out Wallin.. You can bring up a guy from Albany, but I thought we wanted to avoid that, and then your paying a Rat his NHL salary, which hits the cap and paying Wallin to look nice in the press box.

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I'll wait until after a few games in October until I see this as a good or bad signing. Hopefully it's good, but time will tell.

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You want the team to sign a new top 4 D, which would force the Wallin/Alberts third pair, but you don't want the Wallin/Alberts combo. Where's the logic in that?

Yes, that isn't logical. That's why the whole point of my post was asking everyone here when we got a top 4 guy, which is obviously our next move, how would we fix the problem of Alberts and Wallin potentially playing together? I phrased most of my post as a question to see what other people had to say about the issue.

Here's what I originally posted:

I think we're in agreement that he's not going to be one of our top 4 D men, but what worries me is who we pair him with. Wallin has been holding down that 3rd pairing spot for a while now, would paring them together be the best idea? If we don't pair him with Wallin, all of our other options are top 4 or River Rats, which would push Wallin into the top 4. If we could get someone that was proficient at moving the puck out of the zone to pair with him, that'd be great, but where does that leave Wallin and our other parings? Just something I've been thinking about since the signing.

I was thinking about pairings and how they would work out, I'm not seeing what was confusing about my post.

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I agree, more heavy hitters! But I never considered Brindy a "bruising" hitter (or much of a hitter at all). MTC Go Canes!!

Brindy is a stretch, but in his prime he was a hitter - and I think he has a chip on his shoulder, still. He is such a big/strong dude, he does/has played a little physical when he is healthy, I promise.

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actually i think with alberts on the team, we need to stop looking for another dman and start looking for a new goalie, Ward is past his prime and will never achieve anything else. I would love to see peters move up but it may be to soon, what do you guys think of trading alberts, gleason and ruutu to the rangers for lundquist and mark staal, i think we would win the cup then.

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actually i think with alberts on the team, we need to stop looking for another dman and start looking for a new goalie, Ward is past his prime and will never achieve anything else. I would love to see peters move up but it may be to soon, what do you guys think of trading alberts, gleason and ruutu to the rangers for lundquist and mark staal, i think we would win the cup then.

sometimes, when i'm in a bar, i hear random people say things like "global warming isn't real", "the government killed 2Pac", or "Selma Hayek should win an oscar", and I think...man, this might be the dumbest person i've ever met.

Then I read your post and I thought to myself...wow...They do exist.....people who could really think that dumb.

but thank you, for giving me hope that the Middle East CAN have peace, and Racism can stop, but some people...are just idiots.

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actually i think with alberts on the team, we need to stop looking for another dman and start looking for a new goalie, Ward is past his prime and will never achieve anything else. I would love to see peters move up but it may be to soon, what do you guys think of trading alberts, gleason and ruutu to the rangers for lundquist and mark staal, i think we would win the cup then.

ummm... You HAVE been smokin' crack... check into the nearest ER for rehab placement... how about Gleason for the entire Rags D corps with ridiculous salaries paid by the Rags and we'll figure out who we want to keep later...

FYI...

NAME........ AGE GP W L OT GA GAA SO Playoffs

Lundquist....27 70 38 25 7 168 2.43 3 Never made it past the 2nd rd

Ward.......... 25 68 39 23 5 160 2.44 6 has only lost 1 playoff series and that in the ECF

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actually i think with alberts on the team, we need to stop looking for another dman and start looking for a new goalie, Ward is past his prime and will never achieve anything else. I would love to see peters move up but it may be to soon, what do you guys think of trading alberts, gleason and ruutu to the rangers for lundquist and mark staal, i think we would win the cup then.

lol..he is kidding guys.. you ARE kidding...right?...no?.. hm..

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Hmmm---- interesting. You are the only one with a rating of about 1 in a scale of 10. Why do you think all the other people have differing opinions? Including all those in the Canes organization such as Rutherford ,Francis etc?

I have checked a few other boards and none have any significant negative feedback at this level.

Here are 2 other of your posts from 2008 that may shed some light on this one.

"From Jul 3 2008

Well, if you're all right (and you probably are), I'll be one of the first to say I'm not the least bit excited about this team. We're one skill-player injury away from finishing 2nd or 3rd in the worst division in hockey since the Norris Division of the old days.

From Jul 2 2008

Living in the Philly area, I've had an opportunity to see a lot of Pitkanen over the years. He's an outright lousy defenseman, totally underachieving his level of promise. He's very soft defensively and has been getting hurt quite a bit in recent times. While I think Cole had done as much for us as he ever was going to and have no problem with seeing him dealt, I think Pitkanen was a lousy trade option.

Chalk this up as another in a string of bad GM moves over the last 2 yrs of player movement which began with the John Graham signing.

-Ryan"

Allow me to retort.

It's true I come off a bit negative in my posts here and I apologize for that. I just sometimes get annoyed with how unmitigatingly excited people get about moves the organization makes that some folks have little up-front knowledge about.

However, since you felt the need to dig up year-old posts of mine to try and diminish my credibility, let's review the underlying concepts of those posts and go from there:

1. "We're one skill player injury away from being in REALLY bad shape": this rang true last offseason and still does. Because our cap is so damn near maxed, we can't afford to spend on what we desperately need most which is another top-notch scorer to help Staal.

2. "Erik Cole is expendable...": again, this was true when we dealt him for Pitkanen and is still true, evidenced by the fact that his recent signing was certainly no "slam dunk" and was not handled matter-of-factly as if we couldn't have gotten along without him.

3. "I've seen a lot of Pitkanen and his defense has not impressed": I stand by this because although he is gifted offensively, the guy's a defensive turnstile and is not worth what he's paid. The Philly and Edm organizations would echo that sentiment. Don't give me "oh but his +/- is good" nonsense either because there are 4 other players and a goalie on the ice with this guy at all times who help clean up his defensive zone messes.

4. "John Graham stink, period...": He was a standout in college, then stunk in Boston, was marginally better in TB and went on to stink here which to me, was clear-as-day going to happen, yet a lot of people were flat out EXCITED about this signing and lauded Rutherford for it.

*Don't take my word on Alberts though; you'll have plenty of time to sit back and watch his play for yourself. Then you can decide if he's worth the $$ he's being paid. I'm just saying, I would (if I were a betting man) bet that this guy winds up on waiver or spends half the season in street clothes as our #7.

Just saying...

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sometimes, when i'm in a bar, i hear random people say things like "global warming isn't real", "the government killed 2Pac", or "Selma Hayek should win an oscar", and I think...man, this might be the dumbest person i've ever met.

Then I read your post and I thought to myself...wow...They do exist.....people who could really think that dumb.

but thank you, for giving me hope that the Middle East CAN have peace, and Racism can stop, but some people...are just idiots.

Well stated and funny to boot.

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*Don't take my word on Alberts though; you'll have plenty of time to sit back and watch his play for yourself. Then you can decide if he's worth the $$ he's being paid. I'm just saying, I would (if I were a betting man) bet that this guy winds up on waiver or spends half the season in street clothes as our #7.

Just saying...

At 800,000 all he has to do is step on the ice and fart and he'd fill the #7 role better then Kabs did at 2 mil.

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Yes, that isn't logical. That's why the whole point of my post was asking everyone here when we got a top 4 guy, which is obviously our next move, how would we fix the problem of Alberts and Wallin potentially playing together? I phrased most of my post as a question to see what other people had to say about the issue.

Here's what I originally posted:

I was thinking about pairings and how they would work out, I'm not seeing what was confusing about my post.

Yeah, not so much your post, but several above yours that I'm sure you were replying to were lamenting the Alberts/Wallin combo, but then suggesting situations that would force that to happen which didn't make a lot of sense.

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What doesnt make alot of sense is actually being afraid of Wallin and Alberts on the 3rd pairing. It's the 3rd pairing, they arent playing 25 minutes a game and primarily are playing 3rd lines. I would really hope the pairing of those 2 would be successful versus most 3rd lines.

I would be more concerned if this was our 2nd pairing honestly. I have a feeling Alberts is going to be alot like Commodore and he'll get beat to the outside alot since he's a big boy. In which case you dont want a offensive d-man with him because when Alberts get's beat you need a guy like Gleason or Wallin to clean up the mess. Obviously I doubt Gleason at any point this season is Alberts partner so therefore you want Wallin. However you dont want a guy like Alberts to stop rushs, you get a guy like Alberts for long drawn out periods of time in your own zone. After a minute of Alberts beating up on the guy in front of the goal a lot less garbage goals should occur.

I dont see a issue with that pairing, honestly I think it would be interesting. Expecially since the Corvo-Pits pairing was condemmed and actually worked out rather well at times.

Either way Philly is a tough city to play in, if he stunk there...well guess what a ton of players do because Philly fans are brutal to thier players expecially goalies. That city wont be happy until Hextall comes out of retirement.

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Yes, Wallin and Alberts would be the third pairing, but we'd never win an away game if they're paired together. Opposing coaches would match their speediest line against that pairing and it'd be a shooting gallery. Both defensemen can be beat on the outside against speedier forwards.

And he didn't stink in Philly. In fact, most Philly fans aren't happy that the money was spent on Jones instead of Alberts. However, it is possible to like a guy and still point out the flaws in his game, which is the general statement that I'm seeing from a lot of them. Big guy, great bottom pairing, has brain farts at the worst possible times.

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3. "I've seen a lot of Pitkanen and his defense has not impressed": I stand by this because although he is gifted offensively, the guy's a defensive turnstile and is not worth what he's paid. The Philly and Edm organizations would echo that sentiment. Don't give me "oh but his +/- is good" nonsense either because there are 4 other players and a goalie on the ice with this guy at all times who help clean up his defensive zone messes.

Pretty ignorant. A turnstile? You actually believe that? Hahaha you think his plus/minus is good simply because he luckily is always on the ice with 4 other skilled defensively players? Every shift of every game? I think everyone here would agree that it was Pitkanen himself covering up for his other D-mans mistakes (Babs, Seids, Wallin). Pitkanen is probably the best one-on-one defenseman we have, he had a bad start but his defensive play was a huge factor in us making it to the ECF. He is also probably the best 2-way defenseman we have easily. Without Pitkanen we wouldn't have a defense, the player you are describing above is Corvo... He could care less about defense and makes many defensive mistake (Also covered by Pitkanen when they are together).

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Pretty ignorant. A turnstile? You actually believe that? Hahaha you think his plus/minus is good simply because he luckily is always on the ice with 4 other skilled defensively players? Every shift of every game? I think everyone here would agree that it was Pitkanen himself covering up for his other D-mans mistakes (Babs, Seids, Wallin). Pitkanen is probably the best one-on-one defenseman we have, he had a bad start but his defensive play was a huge factor in us making it to the ECF. He is also probably the best 2-way defenseman we have easily. Without Pitkanen we wouldn't have a defense, the player you are describing above is Corvo... He could care less about defense and makes many defensive mistake (Also covered by Pitkanen when they are together).

I think your right.. considering he contributed to his own +/- enough... He scored a goal the first game of the season, followed that up the next night with 2 assists. Nov 21, 3 assists and +4... yeah he was on the ice for those 4 goals, but he made 3 of them happen. He scored 3 Game Winners and had several multiple point games in the playoffs. I would say his +/- is his own making.

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Corvo is probably the most underrated defensively IMO. He's sound positionally in the D-zone and pinches at the appropriate times in the O-zone. He seems to think defense first more so than Pitkanen. He has ocassional mishaps with the puck trying to be too fancy but you need to consider how many times his agility and skill has gotten the team out of a jam in the D-zone.

Pitkanen does do a lot of standing around in defensive zone coverage but is good against the rush. I'm sure I'm the only one that feels this way, shocker.

To try to stay on topic, Alberts strengths fit this teams needs to a T especially considering the money. As far as a thrid line pairing with Wallin and people saying they are vulnerable on the outside, they shouldnt put themselves in too many positions where they are caught chasing at bad angles on the outside. I'm sure they would anticipate the rush.

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Ya'll know... I'm kinda enjoying watching people snipe back and forth over this... and ALOT of people who are singing the praises of JR for picking up a "defensive - defenseman" are the same people who told me essentially that "defensive - defensemen" are worthless, not needed, and that I was crazy for thinking that we should have picked one up last summer... ironic, huh?

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