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Playing GM for the 2009-2010 Season

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It's kind of funny that some Cole fans want a NTC given out, as it would have been likely that Cole was never traded had Wallin not had a NTC. The rumored players to come back in that deal were one of Ehrhoff or Pitkanen, both of whom would have helped us tremendously that season. With a puck-moving defenseman here and no missed playoffs, there would have been no need to trade Cole.

NTCs should only be handed out to your top players, IE your Staals and your Wards.

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It's kind of funny that some Cole fans want a NTC given out, as it would have been likely that Cole was never traded had Wallin not had a NTC. The rumored players to come back in that deal were one of Ehrhoff or Pitkanen, both of whom would have helped us tremendously that season. With a puck-moving defenseman here and no missed playoffs, there would have been no need to trade Cole.

NTCs should only be handed out to your top players, IE your Staals and your Wards.

NTC doesn't affect the bottom line, $$$ and contract lengths do!

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NTC doesn't affect the bottom line, $$$ and contract lengths do!
NTC affects the bottom line if you aren't able to trade that contract because of it.

Saving a few hundred thousand is not worth it when it restricts the flexibility of making a trade. NTCs should only be handed out to players who you have no intention of trading anyway, like Staal (who has a NTC that kicks in next offseason).

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NTC affects the bottom line if you aren't able to trade that contract because of it.

Saving a few hundred thousand is not worth it when it restricts the flexibility of making a trade. NTCs should only be handed out to players who you have no intention of trading anyway, like Staal (who has a NTC that kicks in next offseason).

NO CASH OUT OF POCKET, you don't use it to save a few hundred thousand but to save a million or two. if Cole was older he could be given an incentive based contract which IMO would be wiser - he produces, he gets paid.

there are some players on this team that I think make us better or that at least we are better with than without. Cole is one, LaRose is one, Cullen is one, and to some extent so is Walker. If we lost Brindy, i think Staal would man up and take the reigns. Now if we lost Ward then I think we would really be at a loss. He and Gerbs have been the only ones I have seen that ever gave us hope. And I know we have Irbe fans out there but my beef with the Lativian was that he could be moody, if you got under his skin he would let everything in. Respected Weekes but if you could get a goal on the first ten shots he would fall apart, if he got to the ten shot mark then he was awesome.

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I think you might also use a NTC on a guy you feel you really need. Generally your stars like Ward and Staal, but also could be a key defender, etc. Particularly if that is a big deal for the player. Or to lure someone who is not currently on the team. I don't think that other than Staal and Ward, we have anyone that fits that discription at this moment in time, certainly not Cole.

When things were bad two seasons ago JR said in effect that no one but Staal was safe from being traded. It pointed out the need to be able to asess what each guy was puttting out there and decide if trading him might help the team.

Cole is exactly the kind of player that you want to be able to trade. He looks very good at times, he will put up 20 goals if given ice time, he is fast and big, so even if he struggles a little he will have trade value for a while longer, especially at a lower salary.

My main concern about Cole is this: he is not consistantly a first line producer, especially in the playoffs. If JR's planning to slot Cole on that first line with no other changes, that's not a great plan. I would like him to trade a couple of guys to shed salary, then make a move for a legitimate first line wing for Staal. I would just like to see what Staal would do with that.

I only want Cole if he is slotted on the 2nd or 3rd line and paid accordingly, and with no NTC. And even then, as long as we can free up salary elsewhere to find that legit 1st line winger.

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I don't agree with your assessment, he would be worth a longer deal with a NTC for a reduced $$$. The lower dollar amount the easier they are to move. And yes I would offer him more than Rosey, Cole brings more to the table. What Rosey brings is work ethic, he doesn't have the size or the speed of Cole. Rosey also brings mouth, he knows how to irritate people and get under their skin but that doesn't replace a pure power forward. So to compare the two is like comparing an apple to an orange, even though they are both fruits!! lol

I'm not comparing the too. I simply said I don't think Cole is worth more, in dollars, than Rosey, is all. At least Rosey can put the puck in the back of the net, something Cole hasn't done. Cole also plays on the PP, but he has been nothing but a liability there. Why Mo kept him there is beyond me. So what else, above and beyond no scoring and sucking on the PP, does Cole bring to the table to warrant a substantially higher contract with a NTC, above and beyond Larose?

Apples may be apples and oranges may be oranges but money is green, and Cole is IMO not worth substantially more than Rosey right now. He certainly doesn't need to be signed for a longer term deal with a NTC.

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Cole (when healthy) is generally good defensively as well and I think all the focus on his scoring numbers is forgetting that aspect of his game. He is often tasked with assignments other than scoring and scoring is secondary in those cases. With Brindy's ice time declining you are going to need even more forwards capable of playing well defensively while contributing offensively.

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I'm not comparing the too. I simply said I don't think Cole is worth more, in dollars, than Rosey, is all. At least Rosey can put the puck in the back of the net, something Cole hasn't done. Cole also plays on the PP, but he has been nothing but a liability there. Why Mo kept him there is beyond me. So what else, above and beyond no scoring and sucking on the PP, does Cole bring to the table to warrant a substantially higher contract with a NTC, above and beyond Larose?

Apples may be apples and oranges may be oranges but money is green, and Cole is IMO not worth substantially more than Rosey right now. He certainly doesn't need to be signed for a longer term deal with a NTC.

Cole (when healthy) is generally good defensively as well and I think all the focus on his scoring numbers is forgetting that aspect of his game. He is often tasked with assignments other than scoring and scoring is secondary in those cases. With Brindy's ice time declining you are going to need even more forwards capable of playing well defensively while contributing offensively.

Oh yeah, I forgot he wasn't healthy. :rolleyes:

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I'm not comparing the too. I simply said I don't think Cole is worth more, in dollars, than Rosey, is all. At least Rosey can put the puck in the back of the net, something Cole hasn't done. Cole also plays on the PP, but he has been nothing but a liability there. Why Mo kept him there is beyond me. So what else, above and beyond no scoring and sucking on the PP, does Cole bring to the table to warrant a substantially higher contract with a NTC, above and beyond Larose?

Apples may be apples and oranges may be oranges but money is green, and Cole is IMO not worth substantially more than Rosey right now. He certainly doesn't need to be signed for a longer term deal with a NTC.

we will have to just disagree, if i am building a team I want more Cole's on the team than Rosey. Cole has size, speed, and grit. He is a legitimate top 6, Rosey on the other hand is a fourth liner that can occasionally play third and second line minutes plus be a smurf size avery for us. As much as I like him you just don't pay Rosey more than Cole.

Rosey will get $1.2 maybe $1.5mil this contract and maybe 3-4 years. He is definitely worth more than the $875k we paid him this year. Just not worth much more than that. I am sure that will upset more than a few, Rosey has a big fan base that seems to think he should be paid Staal money and that a larger than life size (because life size would be too small) statue be erected outside the arena. But that won't happen.

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we will have to just disagree, if i am building a team I want more Cole's on the team than Rosey. Cole has size, speed, and grit. He is a legitimate top 6, Rosey on the other hand is a fourth liner that can occasionally play third and second line minutes plus be a smurf size avery for us. As much as I like him you just don't pay Rosey more than Cole.

Rosey will get $1.2 maybe $1.5mil this contract and maybe 3-4 years. He is definitely worth more than the $875k we paid him this year. Just not worth much more than that. I am sure that will upset more than a few, Rosey has a big fan base that seems to think he should be paid Staal money and that a larger than life size (because life size would be too small) statue be erected outside the arena. But that won't happen.

I am pretty sure that most people don't want LaRose paid Staal money. Also if u are basing a player on his size calling LaRose a smurf well then ray whitney must be no good according to ur logic Martin St.Louis must be horrible then also according to ur logic Boychuk must have no chance right he is only 5 feet 10 inches. Something that Chad LaRose does that Cole doesn't is that Chad works his behind off on every single shift and I for one would rather have a player like that then Cole who doesn't always play his hardest every shift. I would have no problem with JR letting Cole go. I am not even a big Chad LaRose fan, but u can't call him a 4th liner that guy deserves to play in the top 6.

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I am pretty sure that most people don't want LaRose paid Staal money. Also if u are basing a player on his size calling LaRose a smurf well then ray whitney must be no good according to ur logic Martin St.Louis must be horrible then also according to ur logic Boychuk must have no chance right he is only 5 feet 10 inches. Something that Chad LaRose does that Cole doesn't is that Chad works his behind off on every single shift and I for one would rather have a player like that then Cole who doesn't always play his hardest every shift. I would have no problem with JR letting Cole go. I am not even a big Chad LaRose fan, but u can't call him a 4th liner that guy deserves to play in the top 6.

THIS TIMES A LOT. And coming from a 4'11" person, I don't appreciate smurf jokes. :P

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we will have to just disagree, if i am building a team I want more Cole's on the team than Rosey. Cole has size, speed, and grit. He is a legitimate top 6, Rosey on the other hand is a fourth liner that can occasionally play third and second line minutes plus be a smurf size avery for us. As much as I like him you just don't pay Rosey more than Cole.

Rosey will get $1.2 maybe $1.5mil this contract and maybe 3-4 years. He is definitely worth more than the $875k we paid him this year. Just not worth much more than that. I am sure that will upset more than a few, Rosey has a big fan base that seems to think he should be paid Staal money and that a larger than life size (because life size would be too small) statue be erected outside the arena. But that won't happen.

I entirely disagree with you here. Rosey plays every shift like if he doesn't play well he will be back in the AHL by tomorrow morning, and he really loves every minute he plays. Plus he had 19 goals this season with virtually no PP time, where as Cole had time on both units of the PP and still ended up with one less goal than Chad. Plus we all know how the two did in the playoffs. Plus LaRose is a guy who can get under guys skin which can be a real advantage for us (go back to your make-up and handbag :lol: ).

JR even said himself that LaRose will be getting a big pay increase this year, and he definitely warrants it more than Cole. I'm seeing LaRose getting around 2-2.2 Mil (i'm not sure about the years) and really I don't see why Cole should be paid any more than what LaRose gets because he hasn't shown why he deserved it recently. He used to be a great player for us, and so that's why I think we sign him to a cheap one year deal this summer and if he steps up his game next year then maybe we can keep him for longer. If he stays where he is at though I say we let him go, because he will have shown that his injury has clearly gotten the best of him.

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At least Rosey can put the puck in the back of the net, something Cole hasn't done.

You are aware that, after a season high in goals, LaRose had one more goal than Cole, right? Yeah, I know he played fewer minutes, and that's certainly something to take into consideration, but it's not like Cole isn't able to score. After a really bad start in Edmonton, the last 30 games there Cole was scoring at a .4 goal/game rate (equivalent to a 32 goal/(82 game) season - which would be a career high for him). So I think it is fair to say he still has the ability to put the puck in the net.

After returning to Carolina, his goal scoring dropped off - but his assists sky-rocketed to .76/game - well above any previous year. And because of that his total points rate for those 17 games was .88 - second only to his 05-06 season. Looking at his typical line-mates in Carolina this year, I think it makes perfect sense that his assists would go up, while his goals would go down. Just as looking at LaRose's typical line-mates, the opposite makes sense. While LaRose has a record goal scoring year, his assists dropped off considerably, causing his total points to actually go down this year. But again, that has more to do with the role each played on their respective lines - both certainly contributed to their line's offensive success.

So what else ... does Cole bring to the table to warrant a substantially higher contract with a NTC, above and beyond Larose?

Both Cole and LaRose bring a lot more to the game than goals/assists are going to show. A little of what Cole brings that can be quantified:

Hits: On a team that is desperate at time for some physical play, Cole is second on the team in hits, with 180. This puts him at 31st in the entire NHL - and 19th among forwards.

Drawing penalties: Cole drew 40 penalties this past season, putting him first on the team, and 4th in the NHL. He took 16 penalties, putting him at a +24 (+1.4/60 minutes) - the best differential on the team. That +24 creates an additional 36 seconds of time with the man advantage per game.

Timely goals: When it has been seen time and again the advantage scoring the first goal can do for a team, Cole scored the first goal of the game 6 times, putting him second on the team, and in a many-way-tie for 22nd in the NHL.

Speed: Cole won the "speediest Oiler" in their skills competition - with the fastest time in many years, perhaps of all time (I didn't keep up with it well enough to know if they determined that.) But in any case, he is fast. And that means that even if his "patented move" doesn't end in a goal, it may well end in a rebound with the defense on their heels - and Staal is fast enough that it can easily create a good scoring chance, or at least sustained offensive pressure. And vise-versa when Staal's breakaway ends up with a rebound opportunity. I really hated seeing Staal's rebound sit in the open ice for what seemed like an eternity until a defensive player swatted it out of harm's way because no one else was fast enough to get there.

Regarding LaRose's PP time, I seem to recall that in previous years there was concern that playing him on special teams left him unable to play at the same intensity level at the ends of games - so that time was limited. LaRose is most effective when he has lots of energy available - and it is easier to play 110% when playing fewer minutes. His conditioning over the summer seems to have gone a long way to improve that, but there may still be some concern having him on both PP and PK - and considering what he brings to the PK, I'd put him there over the PP any day, if it is a choice between the two.

As for the thinking that Cole is more likely to end up with a longer term contract, I think that has more to do with the fact that both parties are likely to be somewhat in agreement with what Cole will bring for the next few years - with a 6 year track record in the NHL that has seen his level of play stay pretty stable over the last few years. I think there will be much less consensus with LaRose. He has a shorter track record in the NHL, is younger, and has shown a lot of improvement over the last season. On the one hand, is the team willing to risk much assuming that improvement will continue, or even bank on the year not being a "fluke"? I think they may be able to get a bargain if they take that risk, but I don't get the impression that they are looking to take many risks this year. And on the other hand, I certainly wouldn't blame LaRose for being confident that his value will continue to go up, and not want to short-change himself taking a long term contract the team fees is "safe" to offer. It doesn't have to do with his value being less so much as his long term value being less predictable.

The NTC is simply a tool the team can use, and to restrict the team from using it except for particular "type" players isn't in the team's best interest. If it is to the teams advantage - for whatever reason - they should use it. JR has said he'd like to see Cole spend the rest of his career here, and I think he can be confident that Cole is the type of player the team will be able to use for the next several years, even if not on the top line. So if a NTC results in Cole being willing to take a real discount on the contract, then it is likely worth it. (I think the idea that players should accept a "home town discount" without a NTC is silly, because without a NTC a "home-town discount" is just a "will play anywhere for peanuts" discount.)

With Cole's lack-luster time playing "somewhere other than in Carolina with Staal", age, and injury history, I don't see there being a good deal that can be made trading him anyway, unless he has a really spectacular year or two. So I don't see not being able to trade him being that big of a deal. Besides, it seems that few players actually refuse to be traded even with the NTC, if the team really wants to be rid of them. (With some notable exceptions, obviously.)

As a side note, from what Cole has said, this past season was the first full season he has played with full range of motion in his neck since it was broken. It would have been interesting to see how that helped, if he had not been in Edmonton for most of the year. If he stays here, I wouldn't be surprised to see him have a pretty good year next year.

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I go out of town for a couple of days and it's the Cole vs. LaRose show. The two guys do different things and to compare the two is apples and oranges. The comments about LaRose being a Smurf and that being an issue isn't really the problem. The problem is that we have enough little people to put on Snow White and the 7 dwarfs and have leftovers. We have 10 guys under 6 feet tall on the roster. Detroit and Pittsburgh don't have that many combined. Do you see a trend?

Each negotiation has to be done independently. Cole's value isn't the 4 million a year he is currently making. I'd say whether it's here or anywhere, he'd be looking at about 2.5 per for 3 years. He is still a physical forward who will hit, but his scoring days and his big payday contracts are in his rear view mirror. He's become a one trick pony. He isn't a PP guy anymore even though Mo has insisted on using him (PP guys have to score). J.R. may save a little on the salary with a NTC. Before you guys go balistic on that, we don't have a ton more NTC's than everybody else. It is a carrot to be used in contract negotiations in lieu of money. It could end up being something like 2.25 for 3 with a NTC and I wouldn't have a problem with something like that. Cole isn't a 3 million dollar man any more but he is still a bigger (for us) forward.

LaRose is a different case. He isn't going to command big contracts around the league. A lot of teams would like to have him but not at a big salary. The old saying about not being able to coach size comes into play. No matter what he does, he is still under sized. That doesn't make him any less of a player, but it comes into play. Sure he hustles his backside off, but he also runs into bigger players and bounces off. He has grit and heart that can't be denied and has a nose for scoring garbage goals. He probably gets offered 1.5 mil max for a couple of years. That is almost double his current salary.

With all this being said, a couple of smaller players and average d-men need to move on down the road and make room for some size and toughness. I feel that is still a year away with the expiring contracts (as well as Staal's winger and our shut down d-man).

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I'd say whether it's here or anywhere, he'd be looking at about 2.5 per for 3 years. He is still a physical forward who will hit, but his scoring days and his big payday contracts are in his rear view mirror. He's become a one trick pony. He isn't a PP guy anymore even though Mo has insisted on using him (PP guys have to score). J.R. may save a little on the salary with a NTC. Before you guys go balistic on that, we don't have a ton more NTC's than everybody else. It is a carrot to be used in contract negotiations in lieu of money. It could end up being something like 2.25 for 3 with a NTC and I wouldn't have a problem with something like that. Cole isn't a 3 million dollar man any more but he is still a bigger (for us) forward.

Agree with salary, not with length of contract. I would not give him more than 2 years.

IMHO

PS glad you made it back .

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Agree with salary, not with length of contract. I would not give him more than 2 years.

IMHO

PS glad you made it back .

I'd really rather see a 2 year deal myself, but I was speculating what I thought he'd get. He will turn 31 in November and 3 years would put us on the hook until he was 34. That wouldn't be the worst thing in the world but if I were GM, I wouldn't even entertain the idea of anything over 3 years for Cole.

Glad to be back safe, but Nashville TN is a fun town.

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First, I'm not Cole basher, I like the guy. But, the bottom line is Cole is not going to be that guy that helps Staal get his assists back up to around 45-50 for the year. If anything, Cole benefits by playing with Staal, not the other way around. So to me, that drops his value considerably. Yes, he still has size and speed and for the most part, and is still a good player. However, if I'm JR, I'm not under the illusion that he will somehow "heal up" and be in any shape or form, the player he was prior to his neck injury. As a matter of fact, JR stated in his exit interview that his lack of production in the playoffs was troubling. So, I offer Cole a shorter term deal, say 2 years, at around 2-2.5 million. If he wants more, let him walk.

I hope we can sign LaRose for roughly double his salary but don't be surprised if another team is willing to give him more, and he walks.

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First, I'm not Cole basher, I like the guy. But, the bottom line is Cole is not going to be that guy that helps Staal get his assists back up to around 45-50 for the year. If anything, Cole benefits by playing with Staal, not the other way around. So to me, that drops his value considerably. Yes, he still has size and speed and for the most part, and is still a good player. However, if I'm JR, I'm not under the illusion that he will somehow "heal up" and be in any shape or form, the player he was prior to his neck injury. As a matter of fact, JR stated in his exit interview that his lack of production in the playoffs was troubling. So, I offer Cole a shorter term deal, say 2 years, at around 2-2.5 million. If he wants more, let him walk.

I hope we can sign LaRose for roughly double his salary but don't be surprised if another team is willing to give him more, and he walks.

If Cole is signed at the 2-2.5 mil range, I don't think J.R. is looking for him to be the Staal savior. If the salary is higher, we may be in trouble. I think at this point in his career, what you see is what you get with Cole. Anyone that thinks he is going to get better is going to be disappointed. If he's signed, I'm hoping for 2 years but I won't be surprised to see him get 3. 2 years would give our youngsters time to get where they need to be.

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Calling Rosey a smurf was not a bad thing, and Ray is a smurf to but both guys can skate. Rosey is more of the gnat flying around irritating people and Whitney is more of a finesse player. I will be glad when JR signs Rosie but those of you that think he will break the $2mil barrier I will just have to disagree with. The boy made $875k last year which really isn't bad money. His "big payday" will be a jump to $1.2-1.5mil and I doubt more than that. There aren't other teams chasing after him and he wants to stay here.

Cole on the other end may not like being offered $2.5mil but if you sweeten it either with a longer contract or NTC he might bite and if he doesn't then oh well.

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It's kind of funny that some Cole fans want a NTC given out, as it would have been likely that Cole was never traded had Wallin not had a NTC. The rumored players to come back in that deal were one of Ehrhoff or Pitkanen, both of whom would have helped us tremendously that season. With a puck-moving defenseman here and no missed playoffs, there would have been no need to trade Cole.

NTCs should only be handed out to your top players, IE your Staals and your Wards.

I don't think its more that fans want to give Cole a NTC, its just knowing JR. JR likes Cole. He's publically said, he likes Cole. He can't afford to pay him $4M. Knowing JR he'll offer Cole something in the range of $2.5-3M for 2-3 years which will have a NTC included. Cole takes the lesser money, knowing he won't be moved without his permission. Its a win win for both parties involved.

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Calling Rosey a smurf was not a bad thing, and Ray is a smurf to but both guys can skate. Rosey is more of the gnat flying around irritating people and Whitney is more of a finesse player. I will be glad when JR signs Rosie but those of you that think he will break the $2mil barrier I will just have to disagree with. The boy made $875k last year which really isn't bad money. His "big payday" will be a jump to $1.2-1.5mil and I doubt more than that. There aren't other teams chasing after him and he wants to stay here.

Cole on the other end may not like being offered $2.5mil but if you sweeten it either with a longer contract or NTC he might bite and if he doesn't then oh well.

I will take that bet. Rosey will get more than 1.5 mil.

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I will take that bet. Rosey will get more than 1.5 mil.

Long time lurker...sometime poster. It has taken me a while to get through all 13 pages of this thread and there are some very interesting ideas and comments....although it does seem that the entire thread has devolved to a discussion about the various values of LaRose and Cole.

I won't insult anyone by saying I love this player or that one....these guys are all professionals, all talented. In the end we should be prepared for one or two of our forwards to be traded (Cullen, Sammy, and Eaves are probably the most likely), one or two of our defensemen to go unsigned - we know which two. There are a couple of pieces of this puzzle that haven't been really discussed - trading and acquiring picks/prospects or young "up and comers". To me, this is a strategy that has worked for us and probably will work again in the future. Nobody wants to see us trade away all of our 1st rounders, but let's face it, I'd happily drop a 1st rounder for a proven young NHL player. As much as we like Sutter, Boychuk or even Bowman, they are totally unproven and may all end up being a bust. I'd happily send one of them plus a high draft pick for a guy like Corey Perry....and that's my point. You may be giving up some salary flexibility, but in the next couple of years we have a payroll situation where that won't really hamstring us.

We have some other options besides arguing the relative merits of our salary cap issues and who we "have" to sign and who we should "let walk". So whether or not we sign Cole (I vote yes on a 3 or 4 yr. deal at an average of $2.5 million per year - 4 yr. w/no NTC, or 3 w/one) or LaRose (I vote yes but something closer to a 3 yr. deal at an average of $1.5 million per yr.; if he want's more, then you have to let this guy walk).

In the end who is to say that the answer isn't trading to get a rising star and bringing up an AHLer? In fact, I'd even consider running an offer sheet out there for Chicago's Versteeg...give me young talent today, not a promise for tomorrow....just my two cents.

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I will take that bet. Rosey will get more than 1.5 mil.

The most he'll get is 1.75M, that's a 50% raise. He won't get anymore than that, atleast not in a Canes sweater.

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Long time lurker...sometime poster. It has taken me a while to get through all 13 pages of this thread and there are some very interesting ideas and comments....although it does seem that the entire thread has devolved to a discussion about the various values of LaRose and Cole.

<snip>

In the end who is to say that the answer isn't trading to get a rising star and bringing up an AHLer? In fact, I'd even consider running an offer sheet out there for Chicago's Versteeg...give me young talent today, not a promise for tomorrow....just my two cents.

Interesting points, but I'm not sure if I see trading for a young gun happening, at least not this year. JR has basically shot down that idea for the immediate future with his statements about organizational depth and our up and coming prospects. To me it seems like he firmly believes they (Sutter, Boychuk, Bowman) will develop into just the guy that you are advocating for. I could see him packaging an older player and a draft pick for someone, but I'm not sure he would sacrifice organizational depth and the big picture for a short term improvement, especially when you consider that he can pay them pennies compared to other players. But then again I didn't see Cole or Mo's return coming either so take my opinion for what it's worth...basically nothing. :lol:

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