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Playing GM for the 2009-2010 Season

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I don't know about anyone else but sometimes I wonder how much Babs is liked in the locker room. Reason I'm saying that is because I have noticed that during most of the year after getting a point, he never really got the same reception from the old vets as other guys did. Might just be me I know. But, if there is an issue between him and some of the guys on the team and management, that would also explain why JR is in no big hurry to compromise and keep him around.

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I don't know about anyone else but sometimes I wonder how much Babs is liked in the locker room. Reason I'm saying that is because I have noticed that during most of the year after getting a point, he never really got the same reception from the old vets as other guys did. Might just be me I know. But, if there is an issue between him and some of the guys on the team and management, that would also explain why JR is in no big hurry to compromise and keep him around.

I checked out YouTube to see what I could find. There is a Babs highlight reel.

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I really enjoyed hearing Forslund. Even got a couple of "Hey,hey, whadda ya say"s in there. I miss hockey.

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Well, Mo seemed to think he could handle top 4 duties, because he had him on the two top lines against the likes of Ovechkin and Crosby. So, are you suggesting the coach and GM suddenly don't agree on his potential?

And Mo also sent Babs butt to the pressbox.

I think we can all agree that Babchuk has potential b/c he has shown flashes of that potential, but I'm just not so sure the kid is going to get that potential all into one basket. He has alot to work one, two main things is confidence and being under pressure. When things are rolling, he is a good player, but as we all know things aren't always going to go well for 82 games a season. Unlike other players, with each passing game he gets worse and worse as his confidence crashes until he finally finds himself in the pressbox.

I know he was a first round pick and he's only 25, but there are other 25 or younger defensemen out there who I'd take over Babchuk in a heartbeat. To name a few:

Shea Weber, 23 years old, drafted in the 2nd round, 40th overall.

Brent Seabrook, 24 years old, drafted 1st round, 14th overall.

Christian Ehroff, 26 years old, drafted 4th roudn, 106th overall

And so far, 19 year old Drew Doughtry has shown me more than Babchuk. Not to mention the others in the 23-25 age group: Cam Barker, Jay Bouwmeester, Dion Phaneuf, Ryan Suter. I left them off cause they were drafted in the top 10, but still these are 25 year olds who have got it together. Just because you were drafted in the first round doesn't mean you are going to be a top 4 guy and by seeing other guys Babchuk's age who have put it all together, makes me wonder if this kid ever is.

I just don't see him surviving in a top 4 role for 82 games and beyond.

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I checked out YouTube to see what I could find. There is a Babs highlight reel.

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I really enjoyed hearing Forslund. Even got a couple of "Hey,hey, whadda ya say"s in there. I miss hockey.

I said in an earlier post, 2 years at 1.3 and 1.5. Their are folks who would have wet their pants late in the season if someone would have suggested a contract like that at that time.

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Caniac247, the problem with that list is the fact that players develop at different rates. Some come into the NHL and have no problem adjusting, and perform admirably from the get go. Most have a couple seasons they use to adjust to the NHL and then reach their potential. The best example off the top of my head would be Tim Thomas. Late, late draft pick, spent a good portion of his career doing nothing of note. Then, out of seemingly nowhere, he puts up two amazing seasons, at the age of his early 30s. Defensemen, in particular, have a big adjustment period, as the speed of the NHL generally causes these kind of pressure problems.

I'd also have to ask you, of the players you listed, which ones do you believe the GM of their respective teams would let go of? The answer is very few, if any at all. Young defensemen that can play at this level are a rare commodity, a concept that JR's never seemed to understand. He has said it himself, he'd rather trade for veteran defensemen than wait for young defensemen to develop.

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Pitkanen actually played much better when paired with Babchuk than with his previous pairing. His offensive numbers dwindled, but his defensive play greatly improved. And to use a familiar phrase: He's paid to play defense. With Babchuk as his partner, he took less shots, instead choosing to pass to Babchuk who, during the time they were paired together, had a much better chance of getting the shot through. He also pinched less often, because of Babchuk's speed. This hampered his offense, but made sure he was there to play defense when needed.

Once again, excellent points.. Pitkanen and Babchuk really did get a good chemistry going. Look, Babchuk deserves a raise, and I think he has all the potential in the world to become a top 4 d-man. By the way, great youtube clip you put up.

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Once again, excellent points.. Pitkanen and Babchuk really did get a good chemistry going. Look, Babchuk deserves a raise, and I think he has all the potential in the world to become a top 4 d-man. By the way, great youtube clip you put up.

Yep, but at the end of the day JR isn't gonna give him one so what do you do?

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would anyone else agree that Paul Mara would be a great signing for our defense?

easily a top 4 defender and would provide another good physical, stay at home Tim Gleason type of defender. we're already stocked with offensive defensive men, now we need some physical guys as well.

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This whole Babchuk thing just doesn't make sense. Babchuk

ought

to be the kind of guy that JR loves to have on the roster. This guy's numbers scream potential and his salary chuckles huge bargain, even with a raise. At 1.5 million he doesn't need to be a top 4 guy. He is a top 4 guy though. Many seem to have forgotten how incredibly awful Kaberle was the year before last. Seidenburg is gone. Wallin has had struggles at times. It just makes no sense to let Babs go and then have to go trade a forward and pay more to replace him. And if we go deep into the minors, and bring up 2 guys then who do we go to when injuries strike?

If we lose Babchuk, we are not going to get a top 4 dman for his money. Now we're going to have to trade someone up front for a dman. But who do you want to let go up front to replace a guy (Babchuk) that you already have on D? We have a lot of forwards, but we are thin on top line talent, and we need to have extra guys up front when and if certain guys don't come through.

It just makes no sense straight up. So much so that there is no way that JR just lets Babs go for nothing or a 3rd round pick. Thus, Babchuk and or his agent has to have sufficiently PO'd JR, or the team or something, or it is all just posturing for the negotiation. Those are the possibilities. I really hope it is the latter, because if it is the former we will not get anything near full value for Babchuk. Again, I trust JR, but I am a little nervous about this.

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This whole Babchuk thing just doesn't make sense. Babchuk

ought

to be the kind of guy that JR loves to have on the roster. This guy's numbers scream potential and his salary chuckles huge bargain, even with a raise. At 1.5 million he doesn't need to be a top 4 guy. He is a top 4 guy though. Many seem to have forgotten how incredibly awful Kaberle was the year before last. Seidenburg is gone. Wallin has had struggles at times. It just makes no sense to let Babs go and then have to go trade a forward and pay more to replace him. And if we go deep into the minors, and bring up 2 guys then who do we go to when injuries strike?

If we lose Babchuk, we are not going to get a top 4 dman for his money. Now we're going to have to trade someone up front for a dman. But who do you want to let go up front to replace a guy (Babchuk) that you already have on D? We have a lot of forwards, but we are thin on top line talent, and we need to have extra guys up front when and if certain guys don't come through.

It just makes no sense straight up. So much so that there is no way that JR just lets Babs go for nothing or a 3rd round pick. Thus, Babchuk and or his agent has to have sufficiently PO'd JR, or the team or something, or it is all just posturing for the negotiation. Those are the possibilities. I really hope it is the latter, because if it is the former we will not get anything near full value for Babchuk. Again, I trust JR, but I am a little nervous about this.

I think you've answered most of your own questions. A few points to at least consider...

-Seidenberg isnt officially gone yet. He's a more complete dman that has a great shot, can play both ends of the ice, skates well and hits like a truck. Until he's signed elsewhere, he's still the better choice IMO if it came down to Babchuk or Seidenberg. Any legit top 4 dman is going to cost some money so why not sign the guy who already possesses all the tools, already fits in well in the locker room, is young and is just coming into his own?

-Babchuk hasnt proved himself a top 4 consistently yet and while he's played on the Canes top 4 at times, that doesnt mean he'd be a top 4 on another team.

-There have been no offer sheets made for Babchuk so maybe other teams arent so anxious for his services either?

-Reasonable contracts arent a bargain if you're not happy or satisfied with the product you're buying. If your product ends up being more trouble than its worth, is it still a good price?

-Kaberle came off of two major surgeries that are known for taking 6 mos to a year to heal with no guarantee of ever getting back to where he was pre injury.

-Wallin has performed fairly consistently for a third pairing stay at home dman. All players struggle at times and he's mostly played up to his expectations while here. JR didnt sign him with the expectation he'd be a Norris Trophy candidate.

-If Babchuk has any worth on the open market and JR is set on him not being on the roster, trading him for something is better than losing him for nothing.

-Based on the JR comments we've all read, he is indifferent to signing Babchuk but makes it very clear when he's making other player signings his priority.

-Are we all so convinced that no one in Albany is ready to make the jump and get his chance? JR seems to think so....at least for now.

He has said it himself, he'd rather trade for veteran defensemen than wait for young defensemen to develop.

Where did you read that? I missed that one. I thought I read that he was giving Rodney and Carson their chance to make the NHL club and felt pretty good that at least one of them had a good chance to make it.

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Well, Mo seemed to think he could handle top 4 duties, because he had him on the two top lines against the likes of Ovechkin and Crosby. So, are you suggesting the coach and GM suddenly don't agree on his potential?

And Eaves played on the first line for a stretch, I guess MO thinks he's a first liner. I'll play devils advocate against myself, if Babchuk were to round out the top 4 they would have 3 D-men that are offensive minded, dont like to bang bodies and would prefer to play nice in front of their own net. This would put a tremendous responsibilty on the forwards to play a more defensive mided game in turn making for less scoring. This team will struggle enough to put pucks in the net. I dont think Babchuk was terrible defensively last season but also dont think he's the 4th defenseman THIS TEAM needs. We WANT heatley to play on a line with Staal, but we NEED chemistry on all lines to be successful. You WANT Babchuk on the team because he had good stats and blocked a shot on a youtube video made by icefrog, but we NEED a defensive D-man to balance out the top 2 pairings.

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-Seidenberg isnt officially gone yet. He's a more complete dman that has a great shot, can play both ends of the ice, skates well and hits like a truck. Until he's signed elsewhere, he's still the better choice IMO if it came down to Babchuk or Seidenberg. Any legit top 4 dman is going to cost some money so why not sign the guy who already possesses all the tools, already fits in well in the locker room, is young and is just coming into his own?

If JR's got the money to re-sign D-berg, why only offer Babchuk his QO? Not to mention, Seidenberg and Babchuk are on the same level in terms of talent, at the best. Almost everything D-berg has done, Babchuk has done better. Seidenberg put up less points, played worse defensively, and took twice as many penalties, all while getting more even-strength and PP time than Babchuk. The only difference between the two would be D-berg is more physical, and I'd say the fact that Babchuk led our defensemen in +/- while Seidenberg had the worst +/- of our defensemen should say something about physical not always being a sign of defensive ability.

-Babchuk hasnt proved himself a top 4 consistently yet and while he's played on the Canes top 4 at times, that doesnt mean he'd be a top 4 on another team.

-There have been no offer sheets made for Babchuk so maybe other teams arent so anxious for his services either?

The same applies to Seidenberg for both these comments. He's never played in the Top 4 during his stint with the Flyers and the Yotes. And last time I checked, no one's rushing out trying to sign D-berg as well.

Where did you read that? I missed that one. I thought I read that he was giving Rodney and Carson their chance to make the NHL club and felt pretty good that at least one of them had a good chance to make it.

He made the comment after trading away JJ. I'm pretty sure he made a similar comment before this draft, but I'll check after classes. It's why he typically avoids defensemen in the first round.

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I said in an earlier post, 2 years at 1.3 and 1.5. Their are folks who would have wet their pants late in the season if someone would have suggested a contract like that at that time.

Exactly, after watching that video how could you NOT want Babs back. His ability to find those tiny holes in the goalie consistently with that monster slapshot is top-5 in the league easily (12.8% shooting %, 2nd among all defensemen only behind Mike Green). I don't care what people say about his defensive skills they are fine and he is only 25 which is when most Defenseman begin to come into their top-4 pairing stature. Say what you want about plus/minus but being tied for 26th among all NHL defensemen at +13 doesn't come from being bad in your own zone.

Every player caniac247 listed above pretty much IS a solid top-4 (Most top-2) defenseman, so why compare Babs to them if you think he is not worthy of a top-4 position? You can't expect every defenseman to break out at an early age such as Doughty, Weber, ect. They are rising superstars, Babchuk is just a growing solid 2nd pairing option with a monster slapshot.

Playing one of our young guys (Carson, Rodney, Borer, Mcbain, ect) in our top-6 makes sense, of course you want to develop our Dmen that have been waiting for their chance at an NHL spot. But I find it hard to believe JR has forgotten how god-awful Kaberle has proven to be over the past 2 seasons. I'd want Babchuk over Kaberle in a heartbeat, especially given the fact that Kaberle is old (35?) and Babs is very young (25).

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Another thing that hasn't even been discussed in all of the Babs conversation is what will occur next summer. Looking down the road, we will lose Wallin and Kabs next summer (I'm assuming these guys won't be back). Babs lost potential would mean more then.

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He made the comment after trading away JJ. I'm pretty sure he made a similar comment before this draft, but I'll check after classes. It's why he typically avoids defensemen in the first round.

I thought he liked defenseman around age 25-27, who were just starting to mature into their prime.

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TSA: great points. My thoughts relative to your points (bold) are in nonbold below.

QUOTE (TSA @ Jul 9 2009, 11:38 PM)

I think you've answered most of your own questions. A few points to at least consider...

-Seidenberg isnt officially gone yet. He's a more complete dman that has a great shot, can play both ends of the ice, skates well and hits like a truck. Until he's signed elsewhere, he's still the better choice IMO if it came down to Babchuk or Seidenberg. Any legit top 4 dman is going to cost some money so why not sign the guy who already possesses all the tools, already fits in well in the locker room, is young and is just coming into his own?

That's an interesting topic in and of itself. Right now one must assume that Seidenberg would cost a lot more, but say the money were even and the whole attitude thing is overblown, just on the ice take Babs or Seids? Seidenberg blocks a ton of shots and is more responsible defensively, but both were benched at points in the playoffs. Both have been inconsistant. If the attitudue issues are much ado about nothing, Babs just has too much monster offense upside. At the least I would get him some minutes to showcase him and trade him. Seids is the one on the open market without finding a taker yet.

-Babchuk hasnt proved himself a top 4 consistently yet and while he's played on the Canes top 4 at times, that doesnt mean he'd be a top 4 on another team.

Seidenberg isn't really a consistant top 4 guy either (nor are Kabs or Wallin, or an AHLer). If we lose Babs we have to try to get a top 4 dman while only sheding 1 million in salary. This will mean either busting the budget or trading a forward or two. Not smart, and part of why this makes so little sense on the face of it.

-There have been no offer sheets made for Babchuk so maybe other teams arent so anxious for his services either?

Maybe, but correct me if I'm wrong, but it is kind a an unofficial smack in the face to make offer sheets on other people's RFA's. GM's tend to hold a grudge and even come back and make counters on the organization that did them wrong just to get them back. How many RFA's have gotten offer sheets from other teams so far?

-Reasonable contracts arent a bargain if you're not happy or satisfied with the product you're buying. If your product ends up being more trouble than its worth, is it still a good price?

This is the rub. This is the point I am making. His on ice stats, despite the flaws are just too good not to give him a slight bump and keep him at least long enough to buff him up for a trade later. At the money, he is a STEAL even with the raise. Thus, he must be either a cancer in the clubhouse or he and or his agent really offend JR's sensibilities, or it is all bargaining. But the tone really seems to be more than a bargaining move. It really seems more personal.

-Kaberle came off of two major surgeries that are known for taking 6 mos to a year to heal with no guarantee of ever getting back to where he was pre injury.

He played better last year when he wasn't in the press box, but he is still our weakest dman IMO. Certainly overpaid, and at best a bottom pairing guy.

-Wallin has performed fairly consistently for a third pairing stay at home dman. All players struggle at times and he's mostly played up to his expectations while here. JR didnt sign him with the expectation he'd be a Norris Trophy candidate.

I suspect nagging injuries on Wallin. He has looked very solid for long stretches, then not so much. Last year he was a solid third pairing but again, could regress. I'm good with Wallin, but not a top 4 guy.

-If Babchuk has any worth on the open market and JR is set on him not being on the roster, trading him for something is better than losing him for nothing.

Absolutely. The thing is, will JR get value for a guy he is desparate to get rid of? Usually JR is on the right side of the value proposition, but Babchuk has extreme upside potential but also whatever personal baggage he might have. JR just seems so publicly frustrated by Babchuk that he might let him go for less than he could get by just signing him nicely and then tradining him "reluctantly". That would seem to be the usual JR approach, but Babs seems to have JR in a tizzy.

-Based on the JR comments we've all read, he is indifferent to signing Babchuk but makes it very clear when he's making other player signings his priority.

Indifferent or indignant? He can go back to Russia. Find a team and we'll trade you. Don't see JR talking about Ruutu like that.

-Are we all so convinced that no one in Albany is ready to make the jump and get his chance? JR seems to think so....at least for now.

I just wonder about the wisdom of Wallin in the top 4 and then Kabs and insert minor leaguer on the last pairing. Just a major step down from Babs and Seidenberg we had last year. Not to mention that injury is inevitable and then it's 2 or 3 AHL dmen. I am all for ONE spot being used that way and ideally that would be JR working a miracle and unloading Kaberle. Yes, ain't going to happen but you never know.

My point is mainly that while IceFrogg rightly points out that there is no direct evidence that Babs has attitude issues, it is hard to explain JR's behavior without it. There is a lot of smoke billowing out from under the JR and Babchuk door. Is there fire?

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-There have been no offer sheets made for Babchuk so maybe other teams arent so anxious for his services either?

Maybe, but correct me if I'm wrong, but it is kind a an unofficial smack in the face to make offer sheets on other people's RFA's. GM's tend to hold a grudge and even come back and make counters on the organization that did them wrong just to get them back. How many RFA's have gotten offer sheets from other teams so far?

Keep in mind though that JR told Babchuk's agent to go find a team that wants him. I doubt JR will hold a grudge if a team takes Babchuk. I do agree with your other point, JR would probably take a bag of pucks just to get rid of him.

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Keep in mind though that JR told Babchuk's agent to go find a team that wants him. I doubt JR will hold a grudge if a team takes Babchuk. I do agree with your other point, JR would probably take a bag of pucks just to get rid of him.

my big question in all this is how much of this is Babchuk and how much of it is his agent? if it is his agent then i hope none of our other players use that agent.

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-Reasonable contracts arent a bargain if you're not happy or satisfied with the product you're buying. If your product ends up being more trouble than its worth, is it still a good price?

This is the rub. This is the point I am making. His on ice stats, despite the flaws are just too good not to give him a slight bump and keep him at least long enough to buff him up for a trade later. At the money, he is a STEAL even with the raise. Thus, he must be either a cancer in the clubhouse or he and or his agent really offend JR's sensibilities, or it is all bargaining. But the tone really seems to be more than a bargaining move. It really seems more personal.

-If Babchuk has any worth on the open market and JR is set on him not being on the roster, trading him for something is better than losing him for nothing.

Absolutely. The thing is, will JR get value for a guy he is desparate to get rid of? Usually JR is on the right side of the value proposition, but Babchuk has extreme upside potential but also whatever personal baggage he might have. JR just seems so publicly frustrated by Babchuk that he might let him go for less than he could get by just signing him nicely and then tradining him "reluctantly". That would seem to be the usual JR approach, but Babs seems to have JR in a tizzy.

This is quite puzzling. It seems that J.R. is intent on driving down the price on a possible trade. What message is that sending to the other GM's? Isn't this the kind of trade that J.R. usually gets the better end of?

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I just wonder about the wisdom of Wallin in the top 4 and then Kabs and insert minor leaguer on the last pairing. Just a major step down from Babs and Seidenberg we had last year. Not to mention that injury is inevitable and then it's 2 or 3 AHL dmen. I am all for ONE spot being used that way and ideally that would be JR working a miracle and unloading Kaberle. Yes, ain't going to happen but you never know.

My point is mainly that while IceFrogg rightly points out that there is no direct evidence that Babs has attitude issues, it is hard to explain JR's behavior without it. There is a lot of smoke billowing out from under the JR and Babchuk door. Is there fire?

I dont think Wallin should be a top 4 guy either and I agree with you about it being pretty clear that JR could care less if Babchuk is on the roster or not, not a good situation for either side. Seidenberg's agent has obviously over valued him or else he'd be signed by now but again, and this really comes down to personal opinion, I just happen to like Seidenberg's fit and upside better with this team moving forward, rather than Babchuk's. I assure you that its not personal like it seems to be for some.

I thought he liked defenseman around age 25-27, who were just starting to mature into their prime.

Thats what I always thought too. If Frog is only referencing some comment JR made during or right after the whole JJ fiasco, I really dont think its fair to use that as his blanket stance about young defencemen, it was more than likely a statement made in regards to JJ specifically and all the drama that came with that situation.

And again, where has JR said that he likes to typically avoid drafting defensemen in the first round?

As for Kaberle, they just want his contract done and I dont see him playing anymore of a roll this year than he did last year. I believe JR's plan is to give the Albany kids their chance and if they make it, not have Maurice stick them as the bottom pair together. He'll mix and match them with established players till some clear pairings who work well together evolve. Next season when Wallin and Kaberle are off the books, so too will several other contracts opening up more possibilites to work with.

We can argue Babchuk's worth and value all we want but if JR has deemed him expendable and has shown little to no interest in getting him re-signed, its time to consider other options.

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If JR decides not to make any moves to get another defenseman and we have this current group of d-man we are going to be in trouble. Nick Boynton was signed a few days ago to a 1 year 1.5 million deal that is a very reasonable deal for a pretty good veteran d-man I wonder were JR was on that one. Also I see that Paul Mara was just signed by the Canadiens. I guess if we are going to get a veteran d-man it is going to have to be via trade I would think that Toronto would be in the market to trade one of their many d-man for a forward maybe we can get Ian White. I just hope that by the time the season starts JR gets a legit d-man who is a top 4 d-man. Maybe if JR packages Babchuk,Eaves and a Pick we can get a good top 4 d-man I would say trade walker but with his NTC.

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If JR decides not to make any moves to get another defenseman and we have this current group of d-man we are going to be in trouble. Nick Boynton was signed a few days ago to a 1 year 1.5 million deal that is a very reasonable deal for a pretty good veteran d-man I wonder were JR was on that one. Also I see that Paul Mara was just signed by the Canadiens. I guess if we are going to get a veteran d-man it is going to have to be via trade I would think that Toronto would be in the market to trade one of their many d-man for a forward maybe Ian White. I just hope that by the time the season starts JR gets a legit d-man who is a top 4 d-man.

Ian White is good but I hope people know he is an offensive Dman who is not very big (5'10" 190 lbs) and really isn't the huge shutdown defensive D that would help us out most.

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Thats what I always thought too. If Frog is only referencing some comment JR made during or right after the whole JJ fiasco, I really dont think its fair to use that as his blanket stance about young defencemen, it was more than likely a statement made in regards to JJ specifically and all the drama that came with that situation.

And again, where has JR said that he likes to typically avoid drafting defensemen in the first round?

http://www.coppernblue.com/2009/5/23/884986/jim-rutherford-who-needs' target="_blank">http://www.coppernblue.com/2009/5/23/88498...rford-who-needs[/post]

There's a quote from a DeCock article that says pretty much that.

You can also look at Rutherford's drafting history and it becomes obvious. He's drafted 115 players, 66 forwards, 37 defensemen, and 12 goalies. However, as the above link states, after Johnson, he hasn't drafted a defenseman higher than the 105th overall.

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If JR decides not to make any moves to get another defenseman and we have this current group of d-man we are going to be in trouble.

Not to worry, JR already said he was going to find another dman through trade if the free agent prices werent reasonable. Trades will happen closer to camp when teams see what they have and where their needs are. The only trade I could see happening before camp is one involving Babchuk and/or Kaberle.

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